UK Politics
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And you're ignoring the second half of the first paragraph?
Why?
Not ignoring it. Of course there are other factors. But brexit is definitely a factor. Therefore: Brexit, the gift that keeps on giving.
A factor, but clearly not the primary one.
I work in agtech, brexit is a gift, it's caused disruption that's a great catalyst for investment in regenerative and vertical farming
Problems are opportunities
Wage growth is also high as a result of the labour squeeze that brexit is partially affecting
That seems suitably vague.
be specific, what can you do now that you couldn't have done in the EU and why has that caused more investment that wouldn't have happened anyway?
The CAP is an environmental disaster. The UK has now created its own agriculture policy that does not subsidise production. This was not possible whilst in the EU.
So I suppose what you are saying is, now that the cost of food production has increased that's made investments in these things more viable? Kind of sounds like some significant downsides for the other part of that equation. Not quite a Brexit benefit for the rest of us, just those in a specific VC funded R+D company.
I also think... those investments could have still happened in the EU tbh, could and maybe should have been government funded research anyway, considering there is at least one large vertical farm company in Germany.
Not really buying that as a benefit myself, but at least it is arguable!
No, the disruption to supply chains from covid and brexit have driven investment decisions to grow more in the UK and to use tech to replace low skill labour that wasn't possible with FOM providing serfs to grub about in the dirt. Cheap labour is a barrier to tech. Modern slavery is a big issue in farming
The CAP was designed to deliver cheap food during conflict, it's failed at the first real test.
The CAP takes the largest slice of the EU budget and the 'modern' farming it encourages have destroyed biodiversity and soil
Policy to fix this has failed miserably to the tune of our entire net contribution to the budget of 66b
https://www.arc2020.eu/cap-billions-spent-on-biodiversity-with-little-impact-auditors/
I agree, modern slavery is an issue as is paying these workers too little these are really domestic problems though which we still have thanks to the government farm worker visa scheme importing them from the RoW anyway. Germany and Finland both have FoM and they have 2 of the top vertical farm companies (one of them even has a project in Bedford apparently. So I don't really see how they can do it in the EU, and somehow we couldn't?
It was designed to ensure food security and nobody has gone hungry so that's not really true is it.
Natural resources including CAP,, CFP and any other rural and environmental measures so that's not really true either is it? Also, even if you do include all that, it comes second to Growth projects (38% vs 47.01%)
Hasn;t Brexit already cost more than our total contributions over 47 years? We were close to that according to Forbes 3 years ago.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2020/01/21/brexit-costs-close-to-matching-britains-total-eu-contributions-infographic/
So we've spent multiple times more than EU contributions would have been for the last few years to fix nothing, and stimulate an industry that is apparently already thriving within the EU.
Doesn't sound like a Brexit benefit to me, it's just loss after loss.
Infarm's farm went bust.
No
Even by the measure that the OBR states, GDP per capita, UK was 2nd in Europe in 2016 and is still 2nd in 2022. The economic impact has been massively overstated.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=GB-XC&start=2016
Investment may have been delayed, but that's just delayed. There's plenty of money looking at undervalued UK companies in deeptech and fintech
What on earth do you mean 'No'.
What's that got to do with what I asked you?
I'm talking about a figure that's been spent/lost or not earned due to Brexit, and the OBR puts it at well over 200 billion now. Which is more than we ever spent on the EU in total over 47 years. Just a fact mate.
Or maybe, investment would have been even higher in the EU and we might have some of the top vert farm companies, like Germany and Finland does eh?
I really don't think you've demonstrated at all that Brexit has benefitted the vertical farm industry like you said it has.
Simply, no Brexit benefits here, as per usual when you scratch the claim even slightly.
I suggest you read this if you want scratch below the surface
https://academic.oup.com/oxrep/article/38/1/112/6514751
It's paywalled, perhaps you can quote me something relevant?
https://academic.oup.com/oxrep/article/38/1/112/6514751?guestAccessKey=238c3951-7d28-40d7-9285-1eb7d44e76a9&login=false
Thank you very much, I've read it, but it doesn't support what you claim and it's actually quite a lightweight document.
Your claim was that Brexit was a gift in the agri tech on account of the disruption and increased costs of farming associated with Brexit.
This is the only part which strikes me as relevant to this claim
Lot of 'may', 'could' heavy lifting going on there. Certainly doesn't refute my point that all of this is/was entirely possible in the EU, and in fact the biggest vert farm companies are in the EU, not in the UK.
Sorry mate, I gave this argument every chance to prove a Brexit benefit, this one is still very much 'not proven' for me, unless you have something better?
Opportunities obviously have to be couched in possibilities. Or do you really expect 40 years of bad subsidy to be undone in 3 years?
Vertical farming is just one aspect of CEA, and before covid and brexit the UK didn't need vertical farms. Now we do. Necessity is the mother of invention.
There are plenty of other areas that the UK can regulate based on science rather than feels now.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2321556-uk-to-relax-law-on-gene-edited-food-in-post-brexit-change-from-eu/
And other than agriculture, AI
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/ai-in-the-eu-and-uk-two-approaches-to-regulation-and-international-leadership/
I mean, you said it was a gift, and now you're back tracking on that quite rapidly.
Sure, but I don't see how they've made it necessary in the EU and have 2 of the biggest vert farm companies, and somehow we couldn't?
Right, but you've seen the shitshow we get from Westminster right? What makes you think policy will be any better, if anything our government seems to consistently make worse decisions than the EU does in my view.
On AI, that's just another lot of maybes, and so far I can't see any tangible benefit you can point to in that article.
Further, the EU changes and modifies it's legislation all the time as well, so any future 'benefit' over being in the EU could just as easily be undone at a future date and then whatever advantage we had will be gone.
I don't think any of this is anywhere near justifying or mitigating the enormous damage that has been done to this country, it would be nice if there was at least something but I don't see it.
It's a gift to the companies I work with. The problems caused by brexit, covid and climate change are opportunities.
Border problems? Customs tech is a multi billion sized market opportunity.
Food supply chain problems? Agtech opportunities
Labour problems? Automation, robotics, AI opportunities
If all you see is problems, you'll never make anything out of anything
I voted for lexit, as did the majority of trade unions, including people like Mick Lynch, it would be absurd to expect a right wing government to deliver lexit...
The benefits of leaving the EU will take years to realise. It hasn't even got started yet.
Well I sort of see what you mean, my company does payment systems and I personally earned a nice tidy bonus for my work on the NI border project.
I really don't see though, how the government paying me that money to do that thing that didn't need to be done before is really a benefit.
Most of these opportunities you describe would have been just as availablein the EU, maybe even more so due to how much easier R + D collaboration was in the EU.
It sounds to me like you've kind of got the blinders on with this, vote for it by any chance?
There wasn't a vote for that, you voted to let the Tories decide for you.
Oh yeah, I agree there :)
That's the economic cost for a political decision.
I don't see why people think centralising power, which is the result of ever more political union, is a benefit.
I'd like to see more decentralised government. A fediverse version if you like. Representative democracy is so last century.
Same reason you centralise anything, economies of scale. For instance, all this agri business regulation, if the UK just used the EU rules, then the UK can trade with the EU (and their other partners) no problem and the UK doesn't have to pay a load of it's own people to do the exact same work.
There you go massive specific and relevant benefit that anybody can understand. It is interesting you cannot really do the same the other way.
Well I am loving feddit.uk so far, it's smashing. The right tool for the right job is an adage as true as anything in my experience and decentralised systems are great in some places and fucking useless in others. As far as democracy goes, most people simply don't have the time to gather all the knowledge you would need to actually govern effectively and make good decisions.
I mean could it be any worse than when we let these useless aristocrat pricks from Eton and Oxbridge who know nothing run riot? Might be less corrupt like, there is that.
But if the centralised management is flawed, as the EU's is because of the CAP and vetoes, it causes massive problems, and then the fixes are sub optimal, which compounds the issue
Exhibit A
https://www.arc2020.eu/cap-billions-spent-on-biodiversity-with-little-impact-auditors/
And I'm not sure why you think someone in Brussels is any less likely to be corrupt
Exhibit B
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar_corruption_scandal_at_the_European_Parliament
The CAP has been reformed more than once and we were big players, most of the regulation UK gov wanted they got.
Vetos have been a problem wrt to foreign policy you are right, and there are talks about moving that to QMV as well. I don't think vetos apply to CAP though, I believe that's all QMV and has been since Lisbon.
As far as your examples, I think those are both fantastic examples of accountability on the part of the EU, in the first case they've commissioned a proper audit of the spending and the effectiveness of that spending, and now know what to address to make future spending more effective. wish our government did shit like that.
In the second case, all those people were investigated and arrested and are in court now, further they were voted out of their positions too, again something I wish our government would do.
You are doing a great job of making me even more sure I am right about this than I was before tbh with you.
The CAP has not been reformed successfully, you're confusing task with goal
Wow, if you think wasting 66b is a sign of good governance, you're lost pal
The CAP is controlled by the lobbyists, and backed by the big growing countries, always has been. It's got nothing to do with protecting biodiversity and all to do with profit
https://www.politico.eu/article/copa-cogeca-farmering-lobby-europe/
Lol, those are the ones that got caught. Man, you are naive as hell
Why do you think there are over 25k lobbyists in Brussels? For the beer and chips?
You've added that qualifier not me, depends how you define success doesn't it. My point was that things can and do change.
Heh, you know, I knew you were going to come back with this so I already have my answer to it.
Yes 66bn certainly does sound like a lot of money to waste, over a period of 8 years and between 28 countries.
Makes me wonder why you are not so bothered about the 200bn that this country has spent on this Brexit project, all on it's own in the same time frame.
Oh right... so now you're pointing to the corruption that you can't prove exists?
Let me ask you this, what do you make of the blatant clear corruption in this country? specifically all of the pork barrel money related to Brexit like the Tees port scandal for example?
I'd like to think you'll be just as scathing, but somehow it seems like any cost associated with Brexit is worth it for some reason, even though you can't even tell me specifically what that reason is, much less prove it's a valid one. I wish I could say this was the first conversation I've had with somebody with Brexititus related Brexit blindness but when you get down to it, you're all remarkably similar.
Lol, you are like most remain voters I encounter, you like the idea of the EU, but don't actually know anything about it. Of the 3 current federations, which one would you like the EU to become? Russia? China? USA?
Ok. Let's do some simple maths re wasted money
66b wasted plus 66b opportunity cost plus 66b to redo the work that was meant to have been done. That's 198b... And that assumes biodiversity hasn't got worse, which it has, so it will cost more. Why do you defend failure?
And no, the UK hasn't spent 200b on brexit. You are demonstrating stunning levels of economic illiteracy now.
When I present you evidence of EU incompetence and corruption, you claim this as evidence of competence and purity. 😂
How about UVL and her disappearing texts?
https://www.politico.eu/article/new-york-times-sue-european-union-ursula-von-der-leyen-pfizer-texts/
And no, I won't defend yet another power structure, I'm not a nationalist, I think all politicians have the opportunity to be corrupt, I don't think that them being in Westminster or Brussels makes a blind bit of difference. You just prefer corruption with a nice accent and better coffee 😂.
Yet again I go to read your link to see what you are talking about and yet again it's not what you say.
Okay so the NYT wants to read the texts, how does that show evidence of 'corruption'?
I mean, maybe we will see them and something will be uncovered, but as of right now you have nothing. If she's corrupt then I hope they throw the book at her. You've not provided any evidence for your claim though. Again.
She has a habit of doing deals over texts that mysteriously disappear
https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/corruption-scandal-hangs-over-eu-president-ursula-von-der-leyen-33871
Oh yeah, Turkish state media site that doesn't even load and talks about Breitbart's opinion, cracking source. Yeah, that I won't accept, give me a reputable source.
You are literally googling for any old shit to support your nonsensical position.
Find your own sources
https://www.politico.eu/article/the-scandal-hanging-over-ursula-von-der-leyen/
And kindly fuck off now, you're boring
Firstly, no need for insults.
I'm debating you in good faith, and I am smashing you to bits quite frankly and it's not even difficult, it's easy. Respond with better arguments and stop lying to yourself and you may be less upset.
Secondly, again that story is not what you said it is. It's allegations and it's not even EU related it's from back when she was German defence minister.
Now I already told you, I don't agree with corruption, I'd throw the book at her if there's any truth to it and it were down to me.
Any institution over time will have examples of corruption, from the top right down to local councils and the church raffle. It's a very human problem that occurs everywhere. The important thing is how you deal with it, and as far as I can see the first case they dealt with it very well (arrests and prosecutions) and in the second case that's clearly something for the German government to do something about.
Then I look at the UK, these idiots you voted to give all the power too, day after day there are stories and evidence about corruption on absolutely incredible scale, literally billions stolen, 200 billion at least wasted on this pile of shit....
Lol, smashing. You haven't got a clue pal.
There you go again, defending failure
I didn't vote for those idiots, moron.
Of course 'I have a clue', as far as I'm concerned I've demolished you and you've got nothing. That's why you've resorted to insults.
You're defending Brexit (badly), the very definition of defending failure.
undefined> Lol, you are like most remain voters I encounter, you like the idea of the EU, but don’t actually know anything about it. Of the 3 current federations, which one would you like the EU to become? Russia? China? USA?
Mate one of the first posts you made on this contained 2 factually incorrect statements and none of your links have backed up your claims.
If me pointing this out makes me a typical remain voter, well I suppose that shows just how much more informed we are than you typically Brexit blind types.
Oh well in that case, £200 bn lost, plus 200bn to re do all that work when we do eventually join and then another eleventy billion for things I made up just like you.
OBR says otherwise.
You've already demonstrated you're willing to make incorrect statements (charitable) and unsupported claims, bit rich to be saying anything about others literacy.
I never said that though.
I said
' I think those are both fantastic examples of accountability' which is an entirely different statment
Do you always make up these straw men to knock down,do you think putting words in your debate opponents mouth is a god way to argue? You are simply incapable of responding to the actual point that's been stated or something?
You voted for fucking Brexit mate, and you're defending it. If you aren't a nationalist, you're in bed getting fleas off them.
Honestly, you 'lexiters' are more deluded than the most red faced sun reading UKIPers.
https://www.farminguk.com/news/world-s-largest-vertical-farm-set-to-open-in-norfolk_61380.html
Your Google fu sucks as does your critical thinking skills
Again, the UK has not spent 200b, source?
Yes, I did vote for it. Very happy with it. Guess it just sucks to be you
Sure, the OBR says 4% GDP loss per year.
3.1 trillion per year GDP, let's make it 5% just to make it easy
150 billion per year, x 2+ years, it's well over 200bn.
Bloomberg also agrees
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-31/brexit-is-costing-the-uk-100-billion-a-year-in-lost-output
So, you going to accept this fact then? or is it going to be fingers in ears?
What is this supposed to prove?
I'm saying, they have 2 of the largest companies in the world you've pointed to a company with 34 employees and 2 farms (1 in construction) In farm in Germany has 422 employees (source linkedin for both) so it's 10 times as big a company as the one you linked.
Haha, yeah I can tell, you won't accept reality, you can't accept you've made a huge mistake, you can't handle the truth!
Like I said, you're all remarkably gullible, I mean similar.
Lol, the OBR said 4% of GDP per CAPITA OVER 15 YEARS
LOL, YOU HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO FUCKING CLUE WHAT YOURE TALKING ABOUT 😂😂😂😂
Mate, firstly.
Calm down.
Secondly, you're wrong, it is GDP not GDP per capita and it is at least 200bn.
These are facts, accept the facts.
LOL
Fuck off and learn something before you give it large pal.
Productivity, as in GDP per capita. Not GDP.
https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/the-economy-forecast/brexit-analysis/#assumptions
No it's GDP, you are simply wrong, confidently wrong I will grant you, but wrong.
Tell me genius, what's the measure for long term productivity growth the OBR uses here?
https://obr.uk/box/productivity-growth-long-term/
Oh right, look at that, it's GDP.
I mean, are you saying Bloomberg is also wrong?
Again, resorting to insults just shows up your immaturity and the fact that you've lost this debate.
You don't understand your own link, 🤡
Fucking hell,
GDP is one thing
GDP per capita is a measure of productivity and living standards
Once you've worked that out, tell me what the loss of productivity that the OBR is forecasting is down to.
Hint, it's comparative advantage. When you've learned what that is, let me know.
I’m happy to hear of a positive side effect of brexit. I’m not going to lie, I think it’s the first.