this post was submitted on 24 Oct 2024
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[–] spoonbill@programming.dev 12 points 1 month ago (25 children)

limiting how much I can use in total is bullshit. It’s not like it can run out.

There isn't a limit because it "runs out" of data, but because of statistics, and the fact that bandwidth is limited.

Adding data caps reduces the total data volume, which in turn statistically reduces the average bandwidth used by all subscribers together (or whatever subset shares a connection).

Another approach would of course be to reduce the speed of each individual subscriber, but it may well be that subscribers prefer e.g. to be able to watch 10h of 4K video, vs 100h of 1080p video, despite the former being a lower volume of data.

Essentially it comes down to whether you want lots of data, but slowly, or less data but quickly (assuming the same price).

It seems weird to ban consumer choice here.

A related, but different, question is if the consumer truly has a choice in the US. But to me it would make more sense to solve the competition question instead of even further restrict consumer choices for those that do have a choice.

[–] ulkesh 16 points 1 month ago (15 children)

I’m confused where you believe consumers are given choice here.

Data caps are usually scaled up with faster bandwidth, not the other way around as you attempt to define. And that’s simple marketing that attempts to excuse the use of data caps.

Also, data caps are artificial and are literally a money grab under the erroneous guise that data is manufactured and thus has intrinsic value. A congressman literally compared it to manufacturing Oreos — which is complete nonsense.

Also, if what you say is true, then why does AT&T impose no data caps on their fiber network? Clearly this is a marketing issue, not a technical one. And perhaps in the past with the way coaxial internet was engineered, an argument could be made for data caps. The industry has grown up since then, technically speaking, and there is no cause for data caps except to continue to line the pockets of ISPs.

I agree with you that working toward consumers having a choice of ISP is where most efforts should lie, but the FCC can walk and chew gum at the same time and remove anti-consumer practices such as data caps, all the while pushing for more competition at the last mile. They’re not mutually exclusive concepts.

[–] spoonbill@programming.dev 1 points 1 month ago (14 children)

I’m confused where you believe consumers are given choice here.

I'm confused by you being confused. Consumers can pick a subscription with a data cap, or they can pick one without. Maybe you can clarify what you are confused about?

Clearly this is a marketing issue, not a technical one.

Why not both? Marketing can be a great way to work around technical issues, e.g. by steering consumer behaviour in a way that avoids the technical issues.

Also, just because one network has sufficient spare capacity to not steer users to reduce data usage does not mean that every network does that. In fact this is where choice comes in: I can pick a provider which spends more money on the network, resulting in a higher costs, but also higher caps. Or I can pick a provider that spends less on networks, resulting in lower costs, but needing caps to make sure the limited bandwidth is sufficient for all customers.

The industry has grown up since then, technically speaking, and there is no cause for data caps except to line the pockets of ISPs.

You mean except the reason I gave, and you ignored?

[–] Vodulas 5 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Consumers can pick a subscription with a data cap, or they can pick one without.

I am in a major metropolitan area and I do not have an option to have no data caps. Even the slow internet plans have them. I don't think you realize the stranglehold telecoms have on consumers.

[–] spoonbill@programming.dev 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

The solution to lack of choice is even less choice?

Fight monopolies by adding choice, not just accepting that monopolies/cartels are natural and just the way things have to be.

[–] Vodulas 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

WHAT CHOICE!? Data caps are on all plans. What options are there? Lay out what you think the choices are.

[–] spoonbill@programming.dev 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Data caps are on all plans.

Nonsense. There are lots of plans without caps. Maybe not where you live, but at most that means caps should be banned where you live. IMHO it makes much more sense to require offering a cappless plan, rather than banning capped.

Edit: Googling for "capless internet usa" gives as the first result https://broadbandnow.com/guides/no-data-caps, listing several providers.

[–] Vodulas 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Do you live outside the US? The way the US works is far less centralized than other countries. Most of this time this kind of stuff is left up to state regulations or even city regulations and contracts. The truth is that capless plans exist, but that is not the reality for large swaths of the US. You're taking a broad approach to a specific problem. Ending data caps ends at the Federal level ends the problem and does away with the mess of state BS. Anyway, I am done talking to a brick wall. Have a good one

[–] spoonbill@programming.dev 1 points 1 month ago

I'm taking a broad approach? The article is literally about the FCC. You know, the Federal Communications Commission. That applies to the entire country.

[–] spoonbill@programming.dev 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

If there is no reason for caps, why wouldn't one of these companies simply remove them, giving them a competitive advantage, and making them more money? Why would one company reject making more?

Maybe capless actually costs them more due to bad infrastructure, and they don't see consumer demand for it? Forcing them to go capless would in that case result in higher prices.

Maybe they form a cartel and have collectively decided to keep caps. But why, if it doesn't actually cost them more to remove the caps? And if it does, then prices would again rise if forced to go capless.

[–] Vodulas 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Around here they charge for going over your cap, so easy profit with no regulation would be the likely culprit. Also, you keep talking about competition, but there are 2 whole broadband companies in my area, and one does not have fiber/gigabit in my area. That is not what anybody would call healthy competition.

[–] spoonbill@programming.dev 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Indeed two companies is not really competition. So why not focus on that, instead of reducing choice, which may lead to even less competition by making differentiation harder?

[–] Vodulas 3 points 1 month ago

You act like I work at the FCC. The reality is the city has tried focusing on that in the past and failed because the contracts set up with the ISPs were renewed by the centrist city government. I think you are thinking of an ideal situation where one does not exist.

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