this post was submitted on 09 Sep 2024
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Google recently rewrote the firmware for protected virtual machines in its Android Virtualization Framework using the Rust programming language and wants you to do the same, assuming you deal with firmware.

In a write-up on Thursday, Android engineers Ivan Lozano and Dominik Maier dig into the technical details of replacing legacy C and C++ code with Rust.

"You'll see how easy it is to boost security with drop-in Rust replacements, and we'll even demonstrate how the Rust toolchain can handle specialized bare-metal targets," said Lozano and Maier.

Easy is not a term commonly heard with regard to a programming language known for its steep learning curve.

Nor is it easy to get C and C++ developers to see the world with Rust-tinted lenses. Just last week, one of the maintainers of the Rust for Linux project - created to work Rust code into the C-based Linux kernel - stepped down, citing resistance from Linux kernel developers.

"Here's the thing, you're not going to force all of us to learn Rust," said a Linux kernel contributor during a lively discussion earlier this year at a conference.

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[–] tiredofsametab@fedia.io 35 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I mean, I work as a software engineering and if I'm not doing continuing ed, be it about architecture, storage, or new languages, I'm going to be of less value in the marketplace. I've learnt languages I didn't particularly want to in the past for work (though I generally came to tolerate or even like some of them. Not lua, though; lua can go to hell).

If Rust truly is the better, safer option, then these people are holding everything back.

[–] wewbull@feddit.uk 26 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

"learn Rust" in this case is learn it to a level where all of the little behaviour around cross language integrations are understood and security flaws won't be introduced. Expert level.

It's not "I did a pet project over the weekend".

[–] tiredofsametab@fedia.io 21 points 2 months ago (1 children)

You are correct and I am aware of that. However, it also seems that they both refuse to learn it and refuse to work with people at that expert level based on the recent drama, which seems very much like holding things back to me.

[–] MyNameIsRichard@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 months ago (1 children)

If you mean the drama I'm thinking off, that seemed to me to be a guy taking on a role that was always going to be 90% political because people are resistant, and sometimes downright hostile, to change and then flouncing off when it was 90% political.

[–] BatmanAoD@programming.dev 11 points 2 months ago (1 children)

He spent four years as the project maintainer. That's hardly "flouncing off."

[–] MyNameIsRichard@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Flouncing off is about the drama of leaving, not the time served before doing so. You can be in a role for decades and then flounce off!

[–] BatmanAoD@programming.dev 2 points 2 months ago

Oh. Well, in that case, his resignation message was pretty matter-of-fact, not dramatic. He did link, in a note at the end of the email, to the now-infamous "the fact is, you're not going to force everyone to learn Rust" video, and the drama was more or less self-manufacturing from there. But to be honest, I think it's a good thing that more people are seeing that video than otherwise would have, and I can't really blame him for linking to it.

And isn't it somewhat concerning that bringing Rust to the kernel is still so controversial and highly "political", several years after initial approval by Linus and Greg KH?

[–] FizzyOrange@programming.dev 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

That's a lot easily than learning the C to the same level and they "force" everyone to learn C.

[–] Strykker@programming.dev 4 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Sure for newcomers to a project like the Linux kernel they have to learn C , because that is what the project is currently written in, but trying to transition the Linux kernel to rust forces people who already are contributing to go and learn rust to be able to continue what they were already doing. And sure you can argue that it's being done so not everything has to go over at once, but there is a level of rust knowledge required at the interface between the two languages, and that burden is as far as I've seen being forced on those long term contributors.

It's not the same thing.

[–] arendjr@programming.dev 7 points 2 months ago

and that burden is as far as I’ve seen being forced on those long term contributors.

This is not what is happening. The current long term contributors were asked to clarify semantics about C APIs, so the Rust maintainers could take it from there. At no point were the C maintainers asked to help maintain the Rust bindings.

[–] FizzyOrange@programming.dev 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Sure, but it's very similar. The point is that those people didn't get to choose the language they're using and now someone is forcing them to use a specific language. They've always been forced to use a specific language.

I guess it just think "I don't want to learn" is a lame excuse.

[–] wewbull@feddit.uk 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

How about "To learn it to that level will take 10,000 hours I don't have"? Does that make more sense to you?

[–] FizzyOrange@programming.dev 4 points 2 months ago

No because it doesn't remotely take that long.

[–] orcrist@lemm.ee 4 points 2 months ago

It's not a question of what's the better option. In reality we have a lot of software that already exists and works, and you can't replace it all in bulk at the same time. So the question is whether the implementation of Rust makes logistical sense, given the difficulties of maintaining currently existing software while replacing some parts of it.