this post was submitted on 19 Jul 2024
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Lefty Memes

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An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the "ML" influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.

Serious posts, news, and discussion go in c/Socialism.

If you are new to socialism, you can ask questions and find resources over on c/Socialism101.

Please don't forget to help keep this community clean by reporting rule violations, upvoting good contributions and downvoting those of low-quality!

Rules

0. Only post socialist memes

That refers to funny image macros and means that generally videos and screenshots are not allowed. Exceptions include explicitly humorous and short videos, as well as (social media) screenshots depicting a funny situation, joke, or joke picture relating to socialist movements, theory, societal issues, or political opponents. Examples would be the classic case of humorous Tumblr or Twitter posts/threads. (and no, agitprop text does not count as a meme)

1. Socialist Unity in the form of mutual respect and good faith interactions is enforced here

Try to keep an open mind, other schools of thought may offer points of view and analyses you haven't considered yet. Also: This is not a place for the Idealism vs. Materialism or rather Anarchism vs. Marxism debate(s), for that please visit c/AnarchismVsMarxism.

2. Anti-Imperialism means recognizing capitalist states like Russia and China as such,

as well as condemning (their) imperialism, even if it is of the "anti-USA" flavor.

3. No liberalism, (right-wing) revisionism or reactionaries.

That includes so called: Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, Dengism, Market Socialism, Patriotic Socialism, National Bolshevism, Anarcho-Capitalism etc. . Anti-Socialist people and content have no place here, as well as the variety of "Marxist"-"Leninists" seen on lemmygrad and more specifically GenZedong (actual ML's are welcome as long as they agree to the rules and don't just copy paste/larp about stuff from a hundred years ago).

4. No Bigotry.

The only dangerous minority is the rich.

5. Don't demonize previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.

We must constructively learn from their mistakes, while acknowledging their achievements and recognizing when they have strayed away from socialist principles.

(if you are reading the rules to apply for modding this community, mention "Mantic Minotaur" when answering question 2)

6. Don't idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.

Notable achievements in all spheres of society were made by various socialist/people's/democratic republics around the world. Mistakes, however, were made as well: bureaucratic castes of parasitic elites - as well as reactionary cults of personality - were established, many things were mismanaged and prejudice and bigotry sometimes replaced internationalism and progressiveness.

7. Absolutely no posts or comments meant to relativize(/apologize for), advocate, promote or defend:

(This is not a definitive list, the spirit of the other rules still counts! Eventual duplicates with other rules are for emphasis.)

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Why would Marxism-Leninism count as fascism? What is fascism, in your eyes?

[–] zaknenou@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (3 children)

hmm, fascism is mainly a totalitarian system I think. I heard USSR did actually suppress some religious acts on its' soil, which is an important aspect of individuality

[–] Kwakigra 6 points 2 months ago

There's a general category of government oppression, which has existed for as long as governments have existed, and then there's the political concept of fascism.

I think Umberto Eco's Ur-Fascism is the best introduction to fascist philosophy. Here are his 14 points summarized by Wikipedia

  1. "The cult of tradition", characterized by cultural syncretism, even at the risk of internal contradiction. When all truth has already been revealed by tradition, no new learning can occur, only further interpretation and refinement.
  1. "The rejection of modernism", which views the rationalistic development of Western culture since the Enlightenment as a descent into depravity. Eco distinguishes this from a rejection of superficial technological advancement, as many fascist regimes cite their industrial potency as proof of the vitality of their system.
  1. "The cult of action for action's sake", which dictates that action is of value in itself and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.
  1. "Disagreement is treason" – fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action, as well as out of fear that such analysis will expose the contradictions embodied in a syncretistic faith.
  1. "Fear of difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.
  1. "Appeal to a frustrated middle class", fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.
  1. "Obsession with a plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often combines an appeal to xenophobia with a fear of disloyalty and sabotage from marginalized groups living within the society. Eco also cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.
  1. Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak". On the one hand, fascists play up the power of certain disfavored elites to encourage in their followers a sense of grievance and humiliation. On the other hand, fascist leaders point to the decadence of those elites as proof of their ultimate feebleness in the face of an overwhelming popular will.
  1. "Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy" because "life is permanent warfare" – there must always be an enemy to fight. Both fascist Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini worked first to organize and clean up their respective countries and then build the war machines that they later intended to and did use, despite Germany being under restrictions of the Versailles treaty to not build a military force. This principle leads to a fundamental contradiction within fascism: the incompatibility of ultimate triumph with perpetual war.
  1. "Contempt for the weak", which is uncomfortably married to a chauvinistic popular elitism, in which every member of society is superior to outsiders by virtue of belonging to the in-group. Eco sees in these attitudes the root of a deep tension in the fundamentally hierarchical structure of fascist polities, as they encourage leaders to despise their underlings, up to the ultimate leader, who holds the whole country in contempt for having allowed him to overtake it by force.
  1. "Everybody is educated to become a hero", which leads to the embrace of a cult of death. As Eco observes, "[t]he Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death."
  1. "Machismo", which sublimates the difficult work of permanent war and heroism into the sexual sphere. Fascists thus hold "both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality".
  1. "Selective populism" – the people, conceived monolithically, have a common will, distinct from and superior to the viewpoint of any individual. As no mass of people can ever be truly unanimous, the leader holds himself out as the interpreter of the popular will (though truly he alone dictates it). Fascists use this concept to delegitimize democratic institutions they accuse of "no longer represent[ing] the voice of the people".
  1. "Newspeak" – fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.
[–] Manmoth@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 months ago

The Orthodox church comemorates the thousands of clergy and laity who were killed or suffered gravely at the hands of the atheist revolutionaries. The commemoration is titled New Martyrs and Confessors of Russia.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Fascism, in the views of most leftists, is primarily a Reactionary attempt by the Bourgeoisie to "turn the clock back" to the "good old days." Core to this is Class Colaborationism between the Bourgeioise and Petite Bourgeoisie against the Proletariat and Lumpenproletariat. There is also extreme nationalism and corporatism, it's a far-right response to the inevitable decline in Capitalism.

Looking at the USSR, it does not fit this general guideline. The USSR practiced Soviet Democracy, which definitely had issues, but was not "totalitarian." It was also Socialist, via being a Worker State, and there were few bourgeois elements (at least until the Black Markets started taking off later in its lifespan, as it began to liberalize).

As for Religion, the USSR was Atheist as the state "religion," it allowed Religious freedom when it comes to practice, but harshly limited the influence of Religion. There were individual events of repression against Religion overall, as this overtly Atheist goal did come into conflict with local religions.

[–] zaknenou@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

umm, as you say you're giving the marxist definition of fascism which excludes USSR, while capitalists will also give their definition which is BASED on USSR.
I imagine myself standing on the middle of this conversation and judging USSR by the elements that commoners associate with the word fascism, @Kwakigra@beehaw.org offered 14 points in his summarization, there are in particular 3 points that I'm familiar with in the political atmosphere of my country (which received some kind of help from USSR to achieve independence) :
1- Disagreement is treason
2- Appeal to a frustrated middle class
3- “Obsession with a plot”
4- Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as “at the same time too strong and too weak”.
as explained by Kwakigra on each line, so it seems to me that ML is just fascism but without the brainwashing and with modernism, which doesn't differ that much from liberalism (in theory, in practice I see liberalism as an imaginary spectrum)

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

umm, as you say you're giving the marxist definition of fascism which excludes USSR, while capitalists will also give their definition which is BASED on USSR.

No, this is false. Capitalists also understand fascism to be based on Benito Mussolini's Italy and Nazi Germany, reinventing fascism to be based on Communism is silly.

Secondly, your analysis of the 14 points is almost laughably incorrect.

1- Disagreement is treason

Sort of. Those attempting to overthrow the state and bring back the Tsars, known as the White Army, were fought violently. Those collaborating with Nazi Germany were also violently suppressed. I don't think this quite counts as oppressing "wrongthink." Overall, partially true, we can leave it, why not.

2- Appeal to a frustrated middle class

This is woefully false. The USSR appealed to the lower classes! The entire point of the USSR was Liberation of the proletariat! It was not focused on the Petite Bourgeoisie, ie small shop owners and the like, but the working men and women in factories. This is the furthest from the truth.

3- “Obsession with a plot”

Don't know what you mean by this, at all, really. Let's leave it as true and tally it up at the end.

4- Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as “at the same time too strong and too weak”.

They did not, really. The USSR always portrated themselves as rising underdogs, and Capitalists and Fascists as their fearsome opponents. We can leave it as true, for tallying.

This means of the 14 points, we generously gave them 3. In reality, it would be 1-2, of a list designed to nail the main aspects of fascism. This is ridiculous, the US scores far higher and is still Liberal (for now).

so it seems to me that ML is just fascism but without the brainwashing and with modernism, which doesn't differ that much from liberalism (in theory, in practice I see liberalism as an imaginary spectrum)

Completely false. You can disagree with Marxism-Leninism with facts and logic, not by contorting it into something it isn't. That's a textbook strawman.

[–] zaknenou@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

hmm, for the 3rd point I meant that communist authority will condemn any other party, ideology or political spectrum as part of the capitalist/imperialist masterplan, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one to criticize Marxists with this

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I mean, that was happening, though. The White Army, Nazi collaborators, and surrounding Capitalist nations during WWI all tried to overthrow the USSR.

[–] zaknenou@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

hmm, in the same way I can say that "jews" served the purposes of the imperialist agenda inside and outside Germany, does that give the Nazis right to oppress an ethnicity and use that vulgar language against them? This is called political failure imo

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Are you arguing that Jewish People and Fascists are equivalent? Dangerous terrorists that actively were murdering people and attempting to return the state to Tsarist Rule should have been opposed.

Jewish People are an ethnicity, this isn't a tie to power but an intrinsic genetic characteristic.

This is an absurd comparison.

[–] zaknenou@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

I wanted to say that foreign conspiracies aren't an excuse for authoritarianism and oppressing the other ideologies and antagonizing them. You justified USSR acts by saying their fears were true.
Now Nazis fears also about Jewish element came true, and I think I've seen that actually the Jewish population was actually being manipulated by foreign entities, in fact this is something every country has, minorities being manipulated by U.S.A, U.K ...etc (even in U.S.A and U.K lool)
The Nazis solution to "the jewish problem" is similar to the marxist solution to ideological/political discrepancy which is to antagonize and oppress every other. That's what I think

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I wanted to say that foreign conspiracies aren't an excuse for authoritarianism and oppressing the other ideologies and antagonizing them. You justified USSR acts by saying their fears were true.

The ideology of fascism was against the USSR, and armies moved against it. Calling antifascism "authoritarianism" is the paradox of tolerance, you cannot tolerate the intolerant.

Now Nazis fears also about Jewish element came true, and I think I've seen that actually the Jewish population was actually being manipulated by foreign entities, in fact this is something every country has, minorities being manipulated by U.S.A, U.K ...etc (even in U.S.A and U.K lool)

No. The fears of a Jewish "cabal" were false, and focused on ethnicity. This is wild and borders on Holocaust justification.

The Nazis solution to "the jewish problem" is similar to the marxist solution to ideological/political discrepancy which is to antagonize and oppress every other. That's what I think

Throwing Jewish People into concentration camps and exterminating 9 million people is not the same as rooting out and militarily combatting fascist organization, the goals of which are genocide of the slavic peoples and reinstatement of the brutal Tsarist monarchy the people overthrew. The fact that you think this is in any way comparable speaks volumes about your positions, as you're quite literally sympathizing with fascists.

Punching Nazis is good.

[–] zaknenou@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I don't know exactly how much of the bad that was said about Nazis is true, neither how much of the bad said about USSR or Maoists is true, most likely USSR's acts weren't as dramatic as the former, but I'm pointing they were both extremely authoritarian

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

You sympathized with Nazis by saying the USSR oppressed them, that's more than pointing the USSR out as authoritarian, that's defense of fascism.

[–] zaknenou@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

emm, I think you didn't live in a communist directed country. Certainly Nazis and these things exist, but not every other ideology or party or organized religion is Nazi plot, authoritarianism leads to political stagnation

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 months ago

Sure, but we have historical evidence of numerous Nazi collabotors working within the USSR to destabilize it, and numerous instances of the White Army attempting to restore the Romanovs.