this post was submitted on 05 Oct 2022
24 points (100.0% liked)
Memes
1357 readers
25 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
This is wishful thinking. This war will grind to a halt some time in the future, like so many other wars do as well. There is no clear "winner"
What about all the lives of the Ukrainian civilization? What about the right to be a sovereign state. Do you really think Ukraine is just fighting because the US said so? How stupid.
The framing ... it sounds like Ukraine was starting the fight. AFAIK it was the rebel groups in the east who started the civil war. At the very least both were fighting and both sides were violating the Minsk agreements / the ceasefire.
You keep repeating and cherry picking details supporting the Russian narrative. Please for once take other perspectives into consideration. Your current comments just sound like well educated and good formulated propaganda.
It's not, it's the reality of the situation and if you learn to parse western media and Pentagon briefings then you'll see that even they are reporting this. There absolutely is a clear winner here. Ukraine started in the best position possible to stop Russia. They since lost most of their machinery and much of the troops they had. The west is not able to resupply them at the rate they are losing what they have.
This channel does a very good job breaking these things down using western sources https://www.youtube.com/c/TheNewAtlas/videos
Perhaps Ukraine should've thought of that when they refused to respect Minsk protocols, refused to stay neutral, and continued to try to get into NATO. The reality is that there is no scenario where Russia will tolerate nukes on their doorstep.
Ukrainian right wing regime absolutely started the fight. The rebel groups in the east started fighting back against ethnic cleansing by the regime the west installed via a coup in 2014.
No, both sides were not violating Minsk agreements. Ukrainian government was doing that with the backing from the west.
This isn't Russian narrative. This is what plenty of western experts have been saying for decades. This only became controversial to mention after the war started. Here's what Chomsky has to say on the issue recently:
https://truthout.org/articles/us-approach-to-ukraine-and-russia-has-left-the-domain-of-rational-discourse/
https://truthout.org/articles/noam-chomsky-us-military-escalation-against-russia-would-have-no-victors/
50 prominent foreign policy experts (former senators, military officers, diplomats, etc.) sent an open letter to Clinton outlining their opposition to NATO expansion back in 1997:
George Kennan, arguably America's greatest ever foreign policy strategist, the architect of the U.S. cold war strategy warned that NATO expansion was a "tragic mistake" that ought to ultimately provoke a "bad reaction from Russia" back in 1998.
Jack F. Matlock Jr., US Ambassador to the Soviet Union from 1987-1991, warning in 1997 that NATO expansion was "the most profound strategic blunder, [encouraging] a chain of events that could produce the most serious security threat [...] since the Soviet Union collapsed"
Even Gorbachev warned about this. All these experts were marginalized, silenced, and ignored. Yet, now people are trying to rewrite history and pretend that Russia attacked Ukraine out of the blue and completely unprovoked.
Propaganda is ignoring decades of history and pretending that Russia just decided to attack Ukraine out of the blue because they're evil orcs who can't be reasoned with.
But still you are cherry picking western resources. Even the new Atlas is arguing very one sided.
Never ever have I pretended that. There are favorable geopolitical and historical reasons for Russia to start the war against the Ukraine, no doubt. But morally speaking there is still no justification of the war.
Alright now we are in conspiracy theory territory. Let's stop here. You are not making it better for yourself proving your image wrong of arguing one sided in perfect alignment with the Russian narrative.
What specifically are you contesting there?
Morally speaking it's no different than what the west has been doing. This is the world we live in, only way to avoid such conflicts is to respect boundaries. Russia has reasonable demands that their security concerns are respected. They were perfectly fine with Ukraine doing its own things until the coup there. If NATO did not continue to expand and encircle Russia since the 90s then there would've been no war.
This is not a conspiracy theory it's a documented fact. You continue to show disturbing amount of ignorance regarding the topic you're attempting to debate. Here's a research paper you should read to educate yourself https://www.researchgate.net/publication/299383810_The_Separatist_War_in_Donbas_A_Violent_Break-up_of_Ukraine
Which Russia did , obviously. And still wrongdoings of the west still do not justify anything of this.
That is way to simplistic. Russia is of course fine when a Russian friendly government is in power in the ukraine and is not fine, when an Europe friendly government is in power. That is pretty obvious from the last 30 years. Russia was not able to just let the Ukraine do it's thing.
Once upon a time there even was the possibility of Russia joining NATO, if we take Putin's words from 20 years ago seriously. And all of the Eastern Europe countries wanted desperately into the NATO because if pervious experience with Russia / the Soviet union, despite skepticism of the USA. History is a little more nuanced than "the west / NATOs big goal is simply to encircle and destroy Russia"
Oh you showed me that resource already. I don't find the word "coup" in there. Could you please cite the part where you believe that this proves your theory.
And just because this is a scientific paper doesn't make it a definite fact. It's history after all, not rocket science. Keep a little skepticism.
Wrong doings of the west are direct cause for Russia starting the war. You're still struggling with the concept of cause and effect here I see.
The government was friendly with both Europe and Russia and participated with each economic bloc. Your whole narrative is false.
Once upon a time the west had a chance to integrate Russia, instead the west chose to make Russia into an enemy and now you get to reap what you sowed.
If you actually read that and don't think that's a coup then what else is there to say.
Maybe follow your own advice. All you've done in this thread was regurgitate propaganda.