this post was submitted on 20 Feb 2024
170 points (100.0% liked)
World News
1036 readers
24 users here now
News from around the world!
Rules:
-
Please only post links to actual news sources, no tabloid sites, etc
-
No NSFW content
-
No hate speech, bigotry, propaganda, etc
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Assange is a bit of a scumbag, but unrelatedly, his efforts for freedom of information should not land him in US torture prisons like many others.
His efforts for freedom of information that align with his political motives. He lost all credibility when it became clear he was picking and choosing. He certainly chooses interesting times to show restraint. And of course he swears the kremlin didn’t give wikileaks the DNC’s emails. And Trump totally didn’t offer him a pardon to say Russia had nothing to do with it.
I am pro transparency, and there was a time when I respected Assange and Wikileaks. But it has become clear he does what is good for him and his politics. That is not the job of a transparency-centric site. You publish everything after it’s vetted. Even if it’s bad for “your team.”
Does he deserve to be in prison for the rest of his life?
I didn’t say that. I said I think he’s full of shit and doesn’t believe in transparency if it doesn’t align with his politics.
And what does that have to do with the fact that he faces over 100 years in prison?
So I literally can’t talk about anything other than exactly the topic of this article? I am discussing the core thing he did to even be noticed. I am also responding directly to someone painting him as a morally righteous prisoner of conscience.
His moral righteousness is irrelevant to the fact that he is being persecuted for journalism.
The fuck does this mean? The core thing he did to be noticed is also the thing that's getting him persecuted.
I feel like you’re not allowing two statements to be true.
Assange is being doggedly pursued by the US for leaking state secrets. No I do not think he deserves to be punished for information he released like with Afghanistan. I think we are better for it and clearly this is the US making an example of him. Obviously we all knew he would be pursued, but again, I think that was the morally right thing to do, and I believe in protecting whistleblowers
I also take umbrage with any attempts to make him out to be a good person or in any way virtuous, which is what the comment I responded to did. He isn’t. He had my support when he was standing for transparency, and he lost it when it became clear he saw leaks as a tool for his political preferences and friends.
We can hold these two ideas at the same time.
As for the sexual assault allegations against him, I have no clue what to think the waters are too muddy there. So I just don’t engage that generally.
Did we read the same comment? They literally called him a scumbag. 🙄
“A bit of a scumbag” dilutes the fact that he failed at the very mission people praise him for. I am happy to admit that I am was somewhat off in my initial reading of their comment. I do not want to get bogged down in that.
The point is that Assange was a useful tool for a certain brand of politics and certain parties. We all need to recognize that. “He’s a bit of a scum bag” isn’t even close to the reality of how nefarious his actions were.
Do we need to recognize that while he's fighting for his freedom? Maybe that can wait?
The truth is important. Isn’t that the whole point of Wikileaks?
Journalistic freedom is also important, and also the point of Wikileaks.
Unfortunately, what we actually learned is that WikiLeaks existed for him to help those he politically agrees with. There is a reason every self-respecting journalist who worked with WikiLeaks has since walked away and no, it is not because of the US government going after him. It’s because WikiLeaks wasn’t engaging in transparency and quality journalism.
Interesting assertion. Also irrelevant, because journalism doesn't have to be neutral. Plenty of journalists have an agenda, in fact I'd argue most of them do and the idea of impartial journalism is something some journalists made up to promote their own agendas.
I didn’t say journalists had to be neutral. I never used the word neutral. Objectivity is a myth and impossible to obtain.
I’m saying these journalists didn’t want to work for a flagrantly partisan organization
that lied about its commitment to transparency.
If you want to be a mouthpiece for Putin and conservative talking points, then you need to not pretend you’re evenhanded and egalitarian with your leaks and publication.
The only people who don't pretend to be evenhanded and egalitarian are, like, indie communist zines. This is just a problem with the industry as a whole - everyone pretends to be neutral, even though literally no one is. That's not something unique to Assange, so kinda irrelevant imo
So you don’t agree that the entire (claimed) raison d’être of wikileaks was that they were a haven for whistleblowers to bring their information to be vetted by quality journalists and released to the broader public, regardless of the political leanings of the information or people involved?
I agree with you that we should not be thrusting that mandate on outlets. But that’s not what happened. WikiLeaks claimed to be a beacon of transparency. That is a bar they set for themselves. I don’t care if they are “biased“ or whatever, I care that their job is to release information (their own mandate) and then they withhold it when it isn’t convenient for Assange’s politics.
Again, all media outlets claim to be beacons of transparency. They all set this bar for themselves. Everyone claims they are fair and balanced. That's just the industry and everyone in it.
Why, exactly, do you care that information was withheld? Are you just mad about false advertising?
Oh come on are you seriously going to play dumb now? WikiLeaks had a very specific purpose and goal. You cannot possibly compare it to a standard news outlet. You are really stretching things here. This has become a total waste of time.
Journalism is journalism. Trying to frame WikiLeaks as somehow different from journalism is just US propaganda and it's the basis for Assange facing over 100 years in prison.
I think the question is, when does the line between journalist and espionage intersect?
Does his state sponsored participation in election interference count as journalism? Did his misinformation campaign during the Catalan independence movement count as journalism? How about the attempt to bribe the Trump administration for the ambassador seat to Australia?
There's a reason every serious journalist that Assange utilized to launch wikileaks has not only abandoned the project, but has accused Assange of financial fraud, miss handling information, and endangering their sources.
I don't think Julian Assange is a journalist, I think he just likes being famous, and at one point journalism was a way to do that. I don't think he should be in jail for the rest of his life, but I also don't think he deserves Carte Blanche for everything he's done based on his prior "journalistic integrity".
Yeah, because they'd be hunted down by the US government right alongside Assange.
Most of the early members of wikileaks left before the first leaks pertaining to the US. Wikileaks original focus was to expose authoritarian governments in the Middle East, ex Soviet block, and primarily China's actions in Tibet. John Young, one of the founders actually left the group after accusing Assange of being a CIA plant after Assange wanted to do a multimillion fund raising drive.
The largest group to leave was before the 2010 Iraq leak, when the actual journalist at wikileaks warned Assange that the batches had not been properly redacted, and he published them anyway.
Fear for their source's safety actually led wikileak's security team to steal data from wikileaks and keep the data encrypted until Assange agreed to improve opsec. Assange ended up kicking them off the team, and they ended up having to delete the data.
I would really suggest reading what his early colleagues thought about his work, it really gives a lot of perspective about how poorly wikileaks was actually run, and how shady of a character Assange is.
Again, I'm not condoning life in prison. I just don't think he's the titan of ethics and moral integrity that people make him out to be. And he shouldn't be immune to prosecution for the unethical and illegal activities he committed outside the scope of legitimate journalism.
It sounds like you are, in fact, saying he should be persecuted for the 2010 Iraq leak.
Lol, I think you like to make assumptions that fulfill your biases. My response was simply an example of how his public image and his personal actions differ. Even if the release was sloppy and he may have potentially compromised his sources, it was still an act of journalism.
The acts that I believe to be outside the credible scope of journalism consist of misinformation campaigns in Spain, the election interference, and the bribe offered to the trump administration for the ambassador seat to Australia.
I can't really see how any of those actions are defensible for someone who considers themselves a journalist.
Sorry, I assumed we were still talking about his extradition. I didn't realize we had gone off topic.
I wouldn't say we were off topic, I was just specifically responding to "His moral righteousness is irrelevant to the fact that he is being persecuted for journalism."
The State is for sure requesting extradition in response to his prior journalistic work (and I do consider the 2010 leak as journalism), and that is of course wrong. However, I think it's still important to point out that he did engage in subversive actions that cannot be excused as journalism.
Doing so set a dangerous precedent for future journalist who look up to the man. The ironic thing is he wouldn't likely be in the situation he is in now if he has stuck to his stated principles, or listened to his colleagues. He would still be hounded by the US gov, but he would have still had countries that would safeguard him. Wikileaks would still be operational, and most importantly less sources would have faced federal prosecution.
I honestly don't see how it helps anyone but the US prosecution to point out that he was a subversive. Whether he's good or bad is irrelevant to whether the journalism he did should be made illegal.
And being subversive shouldn't be a crime either tbh
Lol, I doubt my opinions on Lemmy will be influencing any federal prosecutors. I already stated that it's important for future generations to learn from both the success and mistakes of Assange. I don't really see how white washing his past really helps anyone.
Again, with the strawman? I've explicitly stated I don't agree with the prosecution of any legitimate journalistic endeavor. My point was that if there was any justification for prosecution it would be for his activities that do not fit within the scope of journalism. Since they are not charging him based on those actions, there is no legitimate justification for his current prosecution.
I dont really see the point in trying to deify a person as some sinless martyr. People are perfectly capable of doing both good and bad things, and I don't think we should shy from that fact. Your beliefs are being limited to a false dichotomy of Saint or sinner, when reality is rarely that simple.
Why do you keep replying to everyone with the exact same straw man argument?
Because no one is addressing my point and it's pissing me off. They just drag things off topic because Assange bad.
It's one of the uglier sides of human nature - thinking that human rights should only apply to those humans they like/agree with.
You're not making any point by simply putting words in other people's mouths then ending your comment there.
My point is that tearing down his character is only doing the work of the US prosecution.
Meaning these Lemmy comments going to be entered as evidence in his trial?
Meaning random Americans reading the commentary are going to be influenced to support his prosecution, rather than resist it. The American public has been carefully massaged for years to make this possible without mass unrest.
The first thing @seSvxR3ull7LHaEZFIjM said was: "Assange is a bit of a scumbag" ...
The closest thing to "righteousness" said was: "his efforts for freedom of information should not land him in US torture prisons like many others."
Which, being true, it's absolutely not challenged or contradicted by anything you said in response.
Note that "freedom of information" is totally compatible with "picking and choosing" the manner in which you exercise that freedom. In fact, I'd argue that the freedom of "picking and choosing" what's published without external pressure is fundamentally what the freedom of press is about.
Assagne (like any other journalist) should have the freedom of "picking and choosing" what facts he wants to expose, as long as they are not fabrications. If they are shown to be intentionally fabricated then that's when things would be different... but if he's just informing, a mouthpiece, even if the information is filtered based on an editorial, then that's just journalism. That's a freedom that should be protected, instead of attacking him because he's publishing (or not publishing) this or that.
Not a single non US citizen should be extradited to the US. The US has the worst prison system and punishments outside of some really cruel regimes. They also refuse to work with international criminal courts.
Besides I'm pretty sure the guy only committed a crime in Sweden and not the US.
Can you really blame the man for picking sides after all the US has done to him personally over the years?
Yes. Wikileaks is supposed to be a tool of transparency. Not a tool for his political revenge.
I'm not saying I condone what he did, but I can understand it from his perspective. I'd probably do the same thing if there were a country responsible for ruining my life and health and I had the information to inflict some damage.
I’m not sure what we are debating/discussing. If you’re going to claim you are a bastion of transparency and information for the general public, then no, you can’t weaponize your site and omit politically damaging information about political groups you agree with/are aligned with.
That’s not just revenge against the US. That’s failing to provide the transparency you claim to stand for. He chose to obscure information based on his own whims. How is that not an issue?
Wikileaks had their own leak and it was a very interesting read.
@BolexForSoup just to be clear are you saying that journalists with a political or ideological slant should not be afforded the same protections as other journalists?
No, I believe it's pretty clear they're saying journalists who claim total transparency should have total transparency, not obscure some things because they want to. If you claim to want to protect children and then do a bunch of things to hurt children, you lose your standing as a protector of children. The same here. If you claim total transparency and then hide certain things you lose the claim of total transparency.
@Cethin
Sure. I agree. I just don't see the relevance to whether or not you should be extradited to a foreign country that uses inhumane conditions.
Oh yeah, totally agree with that. I don't know if anyone should be extradited to the US regardless of what they did.
I'd say since the first full year of him living in an embassy ended, we can't be justified to call him a scumbag.
Other than that - his sense of humor in the NetBSD fortune files and other traces in the Internet maybe sucks, but he's a better role model than Snowden (whose life is somehow much easier, which is suspicious really).
Especially since he isn't a citizen and shouldn't be subject to US laws.