this post was submitted on 14 Sep 2023
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What is it with these commie types that they believe communism will leave everyone to become hippies who can do whatever they want and all required resources just magically arrive when they need.
It really is watching children believe in Santa Claus
If we didn't all work to produce excess wealth for the super wealthy, we'd have 20 hour workweeks. People can do a lot with that extra time.
And then surely people will start doing logistics for your fantasy farm in their free time right?
I mean, if they want to, sure. Point is society wouldn't be reliant on that since everything necessary for society to function would be taken care of during the said 20 hour workweek. I don't care if somebody wants to set up a tomato farm or a donkey ranch or whatever on the side, as long as they don't exploit or mistreat anyone.
Logistics would be the job dedicated to moving goods and services around to the place they need to be in. It's not something that would appeal to most but it is a critical job in any modern society.
Set it up with a nice graphical interface, label it "Logistics Simulator 2024" and you'll have people fighting each other for the privilege
Until you spend thirty five minutes explaining to the receptionist for the intermittent carrier why rerouting through Chicago makes no sense when carrying freight from NYC to Hoboken NJ.
You act like there wouldn't be multiple plans submitted with obsessive communities arguing about best practices and min/maxing efficiencies before accepting routes.
I see you have never dealt with trucking companies before. I had a truck puck up in St Louis in June one year and break down in FL for three weeks delaying the arrival in NY for several months. There's no need for the truck to be in FL because that's not a direct route and we had filled the truck but that's how dispatch directed it.
So your argument against doing something a different way is that something that already happens now might happen then...
It's something that happens regularly. Trucking companies are often not run by the well thought out people you would hope.
That's mostly because the people running them are interested in making money and maybe aren't doing it with the same passion. Besides, I'd say logistics, being something that critical to modern society, would be one of the things included in that 20 hour workweek I mentioned. People would still have jobs, but they'd be left with so much more free time than they do now, time that wouldn't need to be spent on side hustles and the likes because society would be geared towards covering needs, not making money.
It's also 24/7 so there'd be people working weird hours. Capital gets that work done even in communist countries (capital or direct coercion).
It's pretty clear that basic economy lessons have failed you.
What you describe is controlled capitalism. People can decide themselves what they want to do and try to get things done in the most efficient way directly without government interference.
The problem current capitalism faces is that there is too little control, too much allowance for monopolies, that sort of shit. Tax the crap out of the rich, limit what you can do "if you create polluting materials, you have to recycle them yourself", "you cant corner more than 10% of a market", etc, but allow people to freely do what they want to do. That would be capitalism, actually.
Yeah that is not how society works, that is not how anything works at all. You don't work 40 hours a week just to make somebody rich even richer. If they could pay you only for 20 hours, they would. You work 40 hours because you CAN have a job which is because they need somebody to do that work. If they don't need you, they won't pay you for nothing dummie. If you work on something not required, congrats, you have a dumb boss that wastes resources and you lucked out. Most people just have normal jobs that NEED to be done. Just saying "lets do communism and we only work 20 hours a week" is beyond naive. Reality is "Lets do communism and half of us will starve to death!"
I would suggest you look into socialism more because it seems to me you are mistaken in some aspects.
Capitalism is the economic system in which individuals can own the means of production themselves, so basically an entrepreneur owns a company and everyone working there are employees with no or very little ownership over the business.
Socialism is the economic system where the workers themselves own those same means of production. What you think of as socialism is most likely the Marxist-Leninist version implemented in the USSR.
Their thought process went like this: the people all own every business, but if everyone was the boss, nothing would get done. So they considered that since people, at least on paper, vote for their leader and the state supposedly represents the people, then if the state owned all businesses it would basically be the same as if everyone owned those businesses. The issue here is that the politicians and bureaucrats who make decisions regarding those businesses, being human themselves, will tend to skew them towards their own interests. Personally, I still think it is better this way than having billionaire leeches that drain the wealth from multiple countries, but that's besides the point.
This isn't the only socialist system imaginable, though. It could be as simple as the workers that are employed somewhere get a share of the company for as long as they work there instead of wages. That way, you get paid a portion of the profit, and as a shareholder, can vote on decisions about the business. It's important though that only people who work there get those shares, no outside investors or sketchy things like that to take away the power from the people. There's no business owner in this since everyone basically owns their workplace and bosses are democratically elected. This is market socialism, you'd still have market forces and all that entails, and I think it would be the easiest change to make if we wanted to give up on capitalism.
Then there's syndicalism, in which unions and syndicates own their sector or industry and manage them themselves. Every worker joins the union when they get hired, and they vote for stuff like leadership, rule changes, charters and the like. These syndicates then coordinate with eachother to ensure everything is working as intended and produced at the rates they are needed at.
As for the 20 hour workweek... it's very reasonable if you look into it. Each one of us not only has to work hard enough to earn for ourselves, we also have to earn for those who are unfortunate and cannot work through taxes, which is a good thing, but we also have to work hard enough to earn for the leeches doing nothing, like the billionaires on top. Every employee has to get paid less than ehat they're worth, since if the employer would give them every bit of money they produce, they wouldn't be profitable. And that's not even getting into people working jobs that don't help society at all, such as landlords, insurance agents, marketing people, etc. If everyone worked in fields necessary for society to function, we would all work 20 hours a week.
They I have good or bad news for you, depending on your stance. We don't. You may, depending on the company which you work for, but generally speaking most people don't.
Yes, yes, YES. Capitalism is evil, pitchfork and torches! Reality check: Capitalism is also the very big reason why you have a computer on your desk or in your hands in the shape of a phone to write about the evils of capitalism. Capitalism is at its core about the freedoms to share and acquire resources in the most efficient way possible. Does it have big BIG problems with runaway effects where a single person can suddenly pheewwww shoot into the sky and start resource hogging? Absolutely. Should that be legally limited and curbed? Absolutely! Is that currently done well? Absofuckinglutely not!
But none of that means that "communism will save us". Dear god, please please don't be THAT naive, don't believe in santa claus.
If you want to spend your free time in a commune to help hippies or whatever it is that you want to do, I applaud you. Seriously, well done. But you WILL have to work for a home. You WILL have to work for food, and that computer you have in your hand to curse the evils of capitalism. And you have to work so that when we all do that, that resources get moved over the world so that the farmer gets his equipment that he needs to farm the grains that he sends to a supermarket that gets bought by a baker which you then buy in the shape of a bread loaf... We all work together.
Again, is there a shit tonne of abuse going on? Of course. Nobody denies that. Is that abuse being curbed? Nope. Should we hang the ultra rich that have been abusing this system? Nah, lets not hang people. I'm not for violence. But should we tax them 100% of their income until their posessions are within a reasonable range? Absolutely.
But communism is not the answer, please learn some history about the "successes" (meaning ALL failures, no exceptions) of comnunism. Read about the famines, the suppression, the torture, the corruption and the crap that comes with that to make it work. I like my freedom. I don't need piles of cash and people generally should not be allowed to have piles. You do that with laws and taxing and enforcing. Lets focus on that instead.
Ah yes, because everything you do is to meet societal needs and not to make more money for the 1%. That's why 34% of wealth in Canada goes to the top 1%.
Then tax the crap out of them. Communism is NOT the answer, its the cause for an order of magnitude more suffering than capitalism will ever be able to cause. These sesame street types that really believe that communism will give them a vegetable garden to work in just should stop using the internet. You are using a frikkin mobile phone, a device that is the frikking epitome of capitalism and science to bitch about the evils of capitalism (and loads of people do the same with science too).
Turn in your mobile phone and go live on a hippie farm (or in a cave) and die of horrible preventable diseases, if that is what you wish, but you don't get to have it both ways.
Yes, capitalism has a shit tonne of problems that MUST be solved, totally agree. The wealthy should be taxed up to a 100% of income once their income and net worth surpasses a certain level. Just cap it. We should have free education, free healthcare, basic rights on homes and food... A socialist system BUILT ON A CAPITALIST SYSTEM. That is because capitalism, at its core, is allowing people the freedom to trade in the most efficient way possible by themselves. THAT IS STRENGTH and that is the very reason why the west currently rules just about everything. Yes, having it run loose with no restrictions (as we currently try to do for some fucked up reason) is bad, VERY bad. Still not communism bad, though. I 100x rather have our current fucked up capitalist system over living in the fun communistic countries of the USSR (hello famines!), China (heeelllooooo famines with millions of victims!) or Korea (helloo!!!) or... Well, you get the gist. I'm not even talking about the government policing that comes with it.
Captialism has problems, absolute. FIX THEM. Don't go jackoff over systems that are known for misery, famines, death camps, and just general failure.
How many famines do you think occured in China and Russia prior to communism? How many people do you think died because of famines in the decades prior to communism?
Famine in late 19th century/early 20th century China and Russia were a fact of life. They'd come ever few years, kill a few million, and then leave. That had been the case throughout history because subsistence farming isn't exactly a very robust system. How many famines do you think occured in the decades before the communist party took power?
How many famines would you guess occured in the decades after the communist party took power in Russia or China? What do you think the odds were that those famines would have occured with or without communist party intervention?
Tax them how? With the government they own?
"Whatever they want" is creating and distributing those resources, but I suppose labour is magic to you.
Yeah, and distributing resources efficiently is one of the core strengths of capitalism, its the reason why capitalism is so successful.
No, I'm not saying capitalism is perfect nor that it doesn't cause suffering, nor that it does not need a shitload more limits than it has right now, but communism is NOT known for its efficiency, nor for letting people just do whatever the hell they want to do. Communism forces people to do what the boss says, if you don't like it you can go to a gulag. If you're talking about "Communism gives people the freedom to find the most efficient ways of distributing resources" then you're kind of confusing that with Capitalism.
If capitalism is so efficient at distributing resources, why are so many people starving?
Also, yet another "communism is when capitalism". Communism wouldn't have an upper class of "bosses".
Also, pointing to socialist states as proof communism has leadership is laughable. That's not communism. It's socialism. At least do some research.
There are loads of reasons for people starving, but in democratic capitalist countries, people typically don't starve. Don't agree? Name one. There is poverty in the US for sure and capitalism in the US is an absolute shitshow, nobody would deny that. But people in the US rarely starve to death.
Wanna talk starvation? Lets talk starvation! Warning: All following links are wikipedia but have stomach churning content. Here be dragons, but please do read because you need to learn. Also note: All the following is from within the last century.
1: Russian famine: about five million deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921%E2%80%931922 (famine caused directly by communism)
Quote from that page: The famine resulted from the combined effects of economic disturbance from the Russian Revolution, the Russian Civil War, and the government policy of war communism (especially prodrazvyorstka). It was exacerbated by rail systems that could not distribute food efficiently.
Fun quote: canibalism
Communism is awesome!
2: North Korean famine: estimated between 600,000 and 1 million deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine (Famine caused directly by communist government policies)
Quote: Economic mismanagement and the loss of Soviet support caused food production and imports to decline rapidly. A series of floods and droughts exacerbated the crisis. The North Korean government and its centrally planned system proved too inflexible to effectively curtail the disaster.
Fun quote: uses of words such as 'famine' and 'hunger' were banned because they implied government failure
Communism is awesome!
3: Chinese famine: 15 to 55 million deaths (yay!)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine (Caused directly by communist government policies)
Quote: The major contributing factors in the famine were the policies of the Great Leap Forward (1958 to 1962) and people's communes, launched by Chairman of the Chinese Communist Party Mao Zedong, such as inefficient distribution of food within the nation's planned economy; requiring the use of poor agricultural techniques; the Four Pests campaign that reduced sparrow populations (which disrupted the ecosystem); over-reporting of grain production; and ordering millions of farmers to switch to iron and steel production.
Fun quote: Cannibalism, AGAIN
Communism is awesome!
Want to know more?
......... I don't even know where to begin with this one. What are you? 5?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekism a nice side effect of communism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chekist < I F*$#king double dare you to watch that movie about the non existing upper class of bosses
In conclusion?
Communism sucks and causes nothing but suffering. There is not even a fucking silver lining about it and people need to stop hippy-dippying communism. Its fucking evil.
Yes, capitalism as it currently runs is fucked up with problems. But at its core its the driver of success that got you your mobile phone in your hands. Use that mobile phone to fix those problems instead of dreaming of perfect mass murdering societies.
We just removed the child tax credit which made child poverty soar. The most "pro-union" president forced railroad workers to take a shit contract in December instead of allowing them to strike.
I don't even know where to begin. That entire comment is full of lies i have debunked before. This is exhausting.
9 million per year. The number that starve due to capitalism.
I have already addressed the Soviet famine. The root cause was a crop blight and Stalin's lax response ultimately worsened it.
As for china and north korea - any reason to believe the communism they don't live in is the cause of that? Your own quote claims north korea mainly suffered because the USSR failed to supoort them.
Capitalism is good at raising production, generating lots of products very quickly and efficiently. But it's notoriously terrible at actually distributing resources in a fair way. Like, that's it's biggest weakness and the things it's worst at.
Communism has the opposite issue of not usually being able to make enough things in the beginning, which is why Marx thought it would happen in already industrialized nations, not poor peasant states like Russia or China.
Right? Somebody never read Animal Farm.
Sure, the current system is fucked, but it's tied and proven that Marxism doesn't work. We need a middle ground.
I'm sorry do you think that the point of animal farm is that the animals shouldn't have revolted in the first place?
That book was written by a socialist.
As someone already said, the book was written by a socialist; but more specifically, it was a socialist who fought alongside communist anarchists (read non-soviet "communists").
The main antagonist's name is also Napoleon, which I don't think was chosen at random. I think the point is that a revolution which uses violence and terror, will only result in a newly oppressed society; like in the 1979 French Revolution, which was followed by the Reign of Terror, and then by a republic which was quickly usurped by Napoleon who became Emperor. The same Napoleon who supported the revolution and was pro republic.
As Emma Goldman said:
EDIT: In the middle of all this, I forgot to make my main point:
Communist/socialism revolutions having turned into dictatorships in the past says no more about communism/socialism, than past republican revolutions creating empires will tell us about republics. The issues lie somewhere else.
It seems like they believe they can be a gardener vs a farmer. That's the only bit that I see that isn't realistic.
In all likelihood they would be neither. With modern technology, we don't need a large percent of the population farming. I realize communists typically eliminate the intellectuals and kulaks—those who would actually have useful knowledge—first, but the smart things would be to have the current farmers keep farming. You'd likely be assigned to a factory to manufacture widgets for the rest of your days.
Do they eliminate intellectuals? The USSR and China seem to have avoided this. I don't believe most nations did this other than Cambodia and I will never see that shitshow as socialist.
USSR despised and fought the Intelligentsia, sending them to gulags
They got to the moon using what people exactly?
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution
You are fucking kidding, right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge
And the part where they believe to have any freedoms whatsoever IS realistic? Or the part where they believe to actually be alive and not die in the next famine is realistic?
I see very little realism here...