When someone asks what you were paid or what your salary expectations are, ask them what the budget is for the role. They have one. They will not want to tell you, and you shouldn’t tell them your expectations
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I did this several times and never got a proper reply. They say stuff like "It depends on the person and is calculated individually". You can't really argue over that unless you're willing to be very pushy or just straight up walk away from the table - which is something you don't want to do in most cases.
Why not be pushy? Why not be willing to walk away? Everyone’s situation differs but a server tech is not going to be lacking for work opportunities. If it’s calculated individually, you say “ok what would it be in my case?”
If they say “it depends on what you’re paid now” that’s a HUGE red flag and you should walk
Not everyone's opportunities are the same. If you can afford to be pushy and can afford to walk away, then sure - do that. However, I personally would not put the whole opportunity on the line and walk away just because a recruiter won't tell me a range. In my last interview they didn't give me any range, while I gave them my expectation, which was a bit inflated, and they just accepted my offer. Could I get more if I knew the range? Probably. But I can't be mad at them, as they matched my expectation. And I enjoy the job so far.
It all depends on the situation, as you also mentioned. I'm just arguing that saying "walk away if they don't tell you a range" is a bit of an exaggeration and might do more harm to some people than good.
this is a conversation you usually have before the technical stuff. you’re making sure your ideal pay and their band is in sync.
being pushy early in the process is terrible advice.
So, what happens then?
A stare and patience contest begins.
As a manager that contest would be ended instantly and I'd tell you to give me a number or get out
It’s a negotiation. Unless you have a lot of knowledge about the industry you’re working in and what market salaries are, you’re at a disadvantage. You don’t have to say a number. They do - they’re offering you a job. If they refuse to offer you the job until you tell them your salary desire, they are trying to low ball you and you likely don’t want to work there.
I have never been an interviewer or interviewee where you are not supposed to give a number.
Of course they try to low ball you. You counter act by giving a number that allows you to haggle. That is how negotiation works.
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT86J7mpN/
That was basically how the meeting went lol
even then, a position may not be for a certain level so they’re can be a fairly wide band of pay depending on how the interview goes.
i think most folks vastly overthink it. just ask for the money you want to make. either it’s in the ballpark or it’s not. all this “don’t say a number first” stuff is bullshit imo.
you definitely do want to know if your desired pay matches their range though. that’s very important.
It’s only a sample of one but I almost doubled my salary by switching jobs. I was bullied and harassed in a shitty startup for more than 3 years. I got fat, almost had a depression and I was not doing anything interesting. Even my skills were decreasing.
A bunch of managers asked me once to do something illegal. HR was also telling me to do this because "it’s an order from the bosses." That was the last straw and I told them to fuck off, and I resigned.
I was underpaid at this shitty company, but I accidentally found another job at a good company with nice people. My salary almost doubled overnight. I don’t want that much money but it was nice "fuck you" to my previous manager that I deeply thanked for being such an asshole.
99% of the time, the only way people get a raise around these parts is by switching jobs. There's never budget until you resign.
I haven't seen any huge increase 'cos I don't have access to manager's records.
When I started at the company I currently work for, my then manager saw how hard I was working and negotiated an 11% raise on my behalf during my first annual review, and another 10% following. She was cool as hell and protected me from the upper management bullshit that was going on at the time. She left because they had her working 65+ hours every week for a CEO who was/is pissing away the company's capital and goodwill with clients.
My current manager is the bullshit, I haven't had a raise since my old manager left three years ago and I've been looking off and on for something else while I steadily lower my effort to be commensurate with my effective pay.
You can find her online. Maybe she can hire you at her new job
I didn't finish my degree so ended up going ops -> devops route.
Salary include estimated benefit values (ending salary) 12/hr -> 50k (60k) -> 70k (80k) -> 115k (125k) -> 115k (counter offered 185k upon resignation which I rejected) -> 190k -> 210k
There's a lot more to the story but that might give an idea of possible bumps. Each jump I took mostly to progress my career where they were looking for skills that built on top of what I had already been doing. I went from like a windows admin, to network admin, to windows/network automation, to ansible automation for anything (and other devops-y things), to a cloud consulting company which focused on automation, to a internal platform architect on a team, to a small business where I'm pretty much the infrastructure wizard, with a junior team member, who does the infra deployments, changes, design, cicd for dev and own team, etc.
When I took a pay decrease from 125k -> 115k it was because the weekly cash was still slightly better but the benefits were far worse. I mostly took it because I needed to get to a cloud focused company to progress my career where I wanted it to go and my company at the time couldn't get me any meaningful experience in cloud stuff at all. The pay jump after that really proved that the experience was worth it. I kind of wish I never joined the 190k company and instead took the counter offer. The 190k company I ended up really not liking leadership's direction and handling of things.
Super happy now at 210k company where I am a bit of a manager. I really like the people, responsibilities, etc. Pay is pretty great, more than I need for sure, so paying extra on the house and good bucks in retirement for later. Of the higher paying places I've been at it is the only one I feel fulfilled and not constantly frustrated.
That's great, can you elaborate what you mean by ops>devops? Do you support infrastructure or applications? I know devops is kind of a catch-all term now for automation, did you work on understanding cloud deployments from the POV of the servers/application or from infra?
I only ask because some of what I do is considered "devops" in the sense that I'm working on network automation, but a lot of times when I hear people discuss devops they're talking about supporting applications
Yeah, happy to elaborate!
When I first started (hourly) I was doing basically field tech work at an msp. That means I was just a monkey following a document and would call for backup if I experienced any issues. I started getting some basic tasks to come up with newer processes, script some existing ones, and generally manage existing clients. I mostly got familiar with OS stuff, took a few Microsoft certs, that sort of stuff.
Second and third job I was doing more engineering of my own. I'd get higher level tasks like design an implementation of a next Gen firewall here, design next developer image, implement monitoring system, revamp backups, etc. Third job involved some public site management but I wasn't yet too responsible for app deployments themselves though was often involved as escalation in app support.
Fourth job was more of the same but focused on automation this time. Our group was called 'automation team' and we revamped processes at a larger regional bank while adding automation. Before I left there we transitioned to DevOps team, but was more of a DevOps processes and platforms team. We wrote a lot of ci and automation but the goal was to have existing app support teams to own it. That model largely worked and we helped train the ops folks to be DevOps folks.
I moved to a cloud consulting company bc I wanted cloud experience and to get closer to app deployments. If you work on line of business applications then you're more likely to demand higher pay while doing more interesting and important work. Managers usually need to improve the product so they're less likely to be wanting to stick to the status quo.
The last two are similar, both justify architecture in the name. The previous though had a lot of bad practices, status quo managers, and was generally miserable. I'm currently quite a generalist because we're at a small business. That said, main responsibilities include writing and supporting cicd pipeline, all infrastructure changes and automation, 3rd party mail system config, etc.
If you have any more questions lmk.
That's great. That's basically the route I'm looking to take, though my background is mostly with networking, so I have some catching up to do in sysadmin skills. Thanks for your insight! I'll give you a follow (idk if that exists in the fediverse lol) and maybe follow up with you later. It's great you're willing to be a resource for the aspiring engineers. That's the kind of spirit I try to embody.
Was making 80k at my last job, asked for 110k when interviewing and my new job offered my 125k, then after a year they bumped it to 145k. I work in devops.
My first "real" job (I used to work at McD's and Walmart, barely three months each) was 120k a year as a software engineer. I left that job for 200k within six months and here I happily stay
Two years ago our software lead left. Me with 3 years experience was the most knowledgeable person on the team. He left because we had gotten acquired. 3 months later they gave me a raise from 92 to 103k, which I showed annoyance with. 6 months later the new company decided to throw money at the people they couldn't afford to lose so I went to 128k. 6 months later I went to 143k
This is on a small team at a government contractor
TLDR: 51K (56%) in 1 year without switching companies
I don't wait to be asked how much I am expecting to be paid. I generally ask the HR person what the salary range is for the role. You have 8 years experience so you can demand the top end of that pay scale.
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT86J7mpN/ This is basically a shot for shot remake of how the meeting went down
I got just about 60% by switching the company. Previously biggest bump that I got internally was about 30%, when I put an ultimatum on the table. Without the ultimatum I'd probably get like 10% max. It's always either switching the job or the threat of switching the job that will make them pay.
I'm job hunting right now and turning over a lot of similar questions, about how much I should be asking for.
A few years back I got over 80% by switching sectors - I was underpaid at a public sector job I loved, and switched to a private sector job in the finance industry and a higher COL area. Similar to you, they offered more than I asked for because corporate had specific pay brackets for that position.
I think your pay depends a lot on the specific area/tech stack you're working in and who you're working for. Some tech stacks just pay more on average than others, bigger corporations can usually pay more than smaller companies, and private sector will always pay more than public sector (but usually with worse benefits). You can check Glassdoor or similar sites to see what people with a similar title make at the company you're applying to, but that's only helpful at really big companies where there are enough employees reporting to give a good average.
I'm from India so these numbers might be a bit weird. My yearly comp has basically gone like this from 2017 to 2023
$0.7k -> $3.6k -> $4.8k -> $20k
$0.7k annually? Is it anyhow possible to live with that low salary in India? I can't even live a month with that here, even if I don't buy anything but the cheapest food and live in the smallest apartments here...
It is possible to live on that, there are people who live on less than it. Personally all of it went to supplementing my Mom's income so we could survive.
There are plenty of entry level jobs in India that offer those kinds of wages. There are more that offer less.
Yes, it's exploitative.
Almost same for me also I started with $1.5k in 2017, now it is near about $20k
I'm fresh out of grad school, and the shift from 22k to 60k has been life changing
The simple answer is, maybe. You could have had more if the competition wasn't better. But you will never know if they were. My advice would be to focus on the fact that you just got a big raise, and enjoy the work. In a year, ask for more, say 10%, and if you're good and fit the culture, they'll do it. If not, start looking. Just be careful of jumping jobs too much.
200% increase once I moved to the U. S from Sweden. I'm so happy to finally leave Europe
That was unexpected (at least to me), like idk it feels like Sweden a good place to stay. Yeah the American salaries can be crazy.... but after you count everything... idk I don't think I personally would have done it.
A good place to stay? I was renting a 2bd apt in Stockholm for 22000 SEK while making only 60k before taxes, after tax it was something like 38k. Yeah, sure, my kids daycare was subsidized and I didn't have to worry about my health insurance, but what I was left with after taxes and rent was barely enough for us. Tbh I even was behind 1500 SEK copay on daycare a couple of times because of how little money I had. We had to eat mostly ätsnart items from ICA, I couldn't afford to buy a bicycle, so I had to borrow one from a neighbor and fix it up, just to save some money on commuting because of expensive fares. The bicycle got stolen eventually. After one year our landlord booted us even though I asked them in advance to renew the contract, a friend of mine told me that this is because I would be eligible for första hand rent contract after living there for 2 years, so landlords never renew 2nd hand rent contracts. We couldn't find another place to live afterwards and had to rent an Airbnb for a while. I moved to Cleveland OH afterwards. I make 2 times more now while paying only 1,600$ for a 3bd house. Our landlord is begging us to renew the contract. We can afford a car. We live normal life now.
Yeah I can see why it would be better. I expected better conditions on Sweden. That said still personally I would have probably tried somewhere else in Europe before America, that again that's just me.
Good pay, probably
But overall, sweden has better safety nets if you lose your job. Healthcare that doesnt bankrupt you, education for your children that doesnt cost anything, etc
For a "working solo" dude i guess it matters less. But if you move your whole family...
Jumping jobs is a great way to increase your salary, but be aware that having a bunch of short stints is a major red flag in the hiring process. You may ace an interview, but who wants to hire somebody and train them with their products and db schemas, just to have them leave in a year.
Over the last 5 years I have went from 50k to 90k. Same company, but recently got promoted to a new department.
My last raise was 10k. But that was after 7+ years of no raises (agency work, slow times). When COVID hit, our business picked up for 2 years straight and I finally convinced them it was stable enough to commit. We're a small company and they'd rather give out bonuses or assistance with personal expenses than commit to an annual salary increase (which I get), but COL has spiked in recent times, so the raise was well past due.
~220% total comp for me last year, switching companies from a job with okay but below market pay, and becoming a senior software engineer in the move. I think I can feasibly double one more time if I try, but it'd be a bigger push and likely involve working for FAANG. Anything more that is outside my reasonably likely career path.
Biggest raise was about 12%, when I got bumped up to senior a few years back. Currently searching for a new gig so I'm hoping for a nice bump