this post was submitted on 22 Oct 2024
48 points (100.0% liked)

Privacy

789 readers
10 users here now

A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.

Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.

In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.

Some Rules

Related communities

Chat rooms

much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
 

If one chats/mails with a person using Windows, despite using secure private protocols, every message will be stored by Microsoft's Windoze Recall. Either I'm missing something but this feature seems like the most grotesque breach in online privacy/security.

What are ways to avoid this except for using obfuscated text?

top 31 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] Kryptonidas@lemmy.wtf 42 points 2 weeks ago

If you tell something to someone else, assume it’s compromised.

[–] MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz 13 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

Don't forget that while they managed the PR better, apple "Intelligence" also has access to damn near everything on your devices.

[–] desentizised@lemm.ee 7 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Yet there's no backlash because they're not so stupid as to say "we're gonna take screenshots as you go so we can improve your digital life kthxbye".

[–] MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz 3 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

"Private cloud" as if that isn't an oxymoron.

[–] sic_semper_tyrannis@lemmy.today 1 points 2 weeks ago

And the fact that Apple Intelligence is just OpenAI

[–] MalReynolds@slrpnk.net 12 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Wow, valid issue.

Spitballing, potentially a secure app could run memory only, blah, blah, blah. Nope, you've given M$ your screen FFS, it's all over. If you care, move elsewhere, tell your friends...

As you point out, codes are an option, but it's not a slippery slope, it's a waterslide.

[–] drwho 8 points 2 weeks ago

The best way is to use comms channels that avoid their Windows install entirely. If Recall never sees it, it never gets recorded.

[–] communism@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 weeks ago

If there's anything sensitive I'm communicating with someone digitally, I make sure that the person in question has basic tech security skills and knowledge about privacy, including telling them to stop using Windows. Including taking the time to teach them basic stuff (like full disk encryption, VPN and Tor usage, explaining E2EE, etc) myself. If you have a high threat model but are talking to non-techy people, you should be taking the time out of your day to do this.

If you're thinking "wow I can't be bothered to do all that", your messaging is probably not sensitive enough for this to be a significant concern. Not that "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear", but just "the amount of time you put into security and privacy should be proportionate to your threat model and the cost of compromise".

[–] unrushed233@lemmings.world 6 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Either use secure, encrypted VoIP calls (e.g. over Signal or another secure messenger with an end-to-end encrypted call feature)

Or you use a secure messenger that only runs on smartphones and doesn't have a desktop client

[–] notTheCat@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

This is just horrible, fuck big tech and their services

[–] unrushed233@lemmings.world 5 points 2 weeks ago
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] GetOffMyLan@programming.dev 5 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

It can be turned off so it's up to the person you're messaging. Once you send something the person at the other end is in control of what happens to it.

[–] arscynic@slrpnk.net 8 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

Once you send something the person at the other end is in control of what happens to it.

True, but this is the beauty of trust. I decide to communicate one way or another with someone depending on the level of trust. Them deciding to break that trust is a risk I chose to take. However, I do not choose to communicate with Microsoft, whatsoever. Windows Recall is the most blatant piece of spyware ever; beyond comprehension how this is so normalized.

[–] desentizised@lemm.ee 3 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Society just needs to get over this AI fad atm. By which I'm not trying to say that AI won't revolutionize pretty much everything in our lives eventually, but first we need to figure out what it can actually be useful for. Or rather non-tech people need to be fully introduced to both its benefits and its pitfalls before tech companies will have a clear picture of where the red lines are for people ideologically speaking. We the nerds have our moral compass figured out but we're a minority when it comes to who these products are made for.

Leave it to Microsoft to come up with the most dystopian AI concept yet. But to be honest I'd be way more wary of a company like Alphabet for whom data collection is much more central to their business model and who know how to package their spyware neatly. Microsoft announcing this as a feature from a podium shows how tonedeaf they are but I'd argue it also shows that they're not following some self-serving plan behind the scenes to take advantage of that thing they're so proud of publically (a mass espionage at which I firmly believe they wouldn't be anywhere near efficient enough if they tried). They really must've thought that this is what can get Windows back into the limelight. It is Microsoft's problem of our time that with everyone being on smartphones and tablets now they are losing traction in the consumer market by the day.

Point being (as far as the valid privacy concerns go) that Microsoft were never in the data business. They're just really really bad at understanding what consumers want out of an operating system. I got my first own PC in 2001 right when XP came out. They've always been bad at making things work for the user. And since Vista all they've really been doing is copying Apple's eyecandy. First off of macOS (then OS X), now with Windows 11 they basically want to look like a tablet OS with app icons once again after that idea failed spectacularly under Windows 8. I'm basically just rambling at this point but it should go to illustrate their lacklustre corporate decisionmaking. I wouldn't be worried about their potential desire much less their ability to compromise that Recall data. Yes it's a hugely concerning concept from a privacy standpoint and every step to circumvent its analysis should and arguably must be taken, but I also wouldn't lose sleep over the data it is collecting on other people's machines.

[–] GetOffMyLan@programming.dev 2 points 2 weeks ago

You have to trust the person you're communicating with has turned it off. That's my point. It's an optional feature

[–] BlastboomStrice@mander.xyz 5 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Ugh, I didnt think about that😬

[–] jaxiiruff@lemmy.zip 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Me neither! Microsoft needs to be taken to court over this because it is a serious breach of privacy to not only record the users but even random bystanders as well. Now I am convinced this is just a backdoor for the government hiding in plain sight. Fuck them.

[–] CosmicTurtle0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 2 weeks ago

Oh this 100% is the government backdoor that they've been begging for. "If you can innovate your way into it, you can innovate a way out of it."

That was in regards to Apple phones belonging to Boston bombers being encrypted and locked.

It's no surprise that behind closed doors, the government asked these companies to create backdoors for them to spy on people.

[–] Boomkop3@reddthat.com 1 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)
[–] arscynic@slrpnk.net 12 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

I'm afraid this comment shows a severe underestimation of the gravity of this issue. Windows recall doesn't stop at borders even if it were illegal there.

[–] Boomkop3@reddthat.com 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Well, it's not here yet. And I do use windows 11, as does my mom, my grandparents and other pc's I'm the one helping with. I don't recall any recalls :p

And if they do push it here, it's probably followed by a news headline "eu fined Microsoft 10 billion for gdpr violation" or something like that

[–] CHKMRK@programming.dev 3 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

EU fines take way longer then that, give it a couple years of data collection and if we're lucky they get fined

[–] Boomkop3@reddthat.com 1 points 2 weeks ago

Their warnings tend to be a bit quicker

[–] ReversalHatchery 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

who cares? try to prove anything

[–] Boomkop3@reddthat.com 1 points 2 weeks ago

Europe has decent privacy laws, that's how I avoid it

[–] Max_P@lemmy.max-p.me 1 points 2 weeks ago

You can't, at that point you assume your correspondent is compromised. It's not just recall but also malware and credential stealers. Doesn't matter if recall is taking screenshots, if the messaging client itself is pwned via malware then they have full access to as much history as is available.

[–] hddsx@lemmy.ca 0 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

To my knowledge, there isn’t. But you can ask the person to turn off recall. I’m going to be running 11 in a VM myself so /me shrugs

[–] galileopie@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

The code for Recall is in the code for File Manger. Recall cannot be turned off if you want Windows to load and function.

[–] GetOffMyLan@programming.dev 0 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

There's literally an option to turn it off

[–] ReversalHatchery 4 points 2 weeks ago

like all the privacy toggles on facebook? or the "dont upload my start menu searches to bing pretty please" group policy on windows that doesn't fucking work anymore?