Yes.
this post was submitted on 07 Feb 2024
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Not really. There's no intrinsic irrationality in saying "humans often behave in irrational ways but we should expect (+>demand) them to behave more decently".
Expecting something, in this case, is ultimately a prescriptive/deontic position (how things should be), while evidence yields solely descriptive/epistemic data (how things are). As such, evidence alone cannot be used to confirm or contradict your expectations, you'd need to couple it with some moral premises to bridge the gap.
I'm not sure that contradicts my original point.
Moral premises are often based on a felt sense rather than evidence, the should of them represents a preference which is subjective and derived from context such as environment and culture rather than evidence.
It contradicts your original point because it shows that we can't assign the attribute "irrational" to an expectation; it's like assigning colours to a transparent object.
Moral premises are often based on a felt sense rather than evidence, the should of them represents a preference which is subjective and derived from context such as environment and culture rather than evidence.
I'm not sure but I think this to be true. Even then, that moral premise would be the only way to actually use the evidence to label the expectation as rational or irrational; something like "evidence shows that acting acc. to those expectations would hinder/further the moral premise, thus being irrational/rational".
We have reached the point in the discussion where to move forwards we need to define terms.
By rational in this context I think what I'm meaning is a choice based on evidence which indicates that a given course of action is likely to result in the outcome intended.
Like how if my neighbour parks on my front lawn, my immediate response is to smash his car and the rational response is to talk to him calmly. Evidence suggests that being the bigger person there would be more likely to protect my lawn and property, even if morally I would have the right to be angry and express that.
I think that I got it. The def mismatch wasn't on the word "rational", but rather on "to expect". Based on your example you're using it for "to anticipate, to predict"; I was reading it as "to hope, to demand".
Now I agree with your point - yes, it's irrational to predict/anticipate that humans will act rationally. [Sorry for the confusion]
No worries! Thanks for the discussion and offering your insights. I'm impressed by your clarity and discernment.
I agree with you— I think it’s one of those “well our tools of analysis only work under an assumption of rationality, so we have to state it as an axiom” things.
Its hard to say waht is rational in the generic as it is often situational. Its rational to prepare and save for the future but if no amount of savings can get something substantial. Lets say like a house. A rational mind might not see much of a point to saving for it. Compound this with a future that seems to be rigged, lets say but investments or savings that seem to lose over time. Well what is rational changes.
True, rational decision in the objective sense depend on having accurate and available data.
I believe it's still possible to make a rational decision based on available but limited data.
Being aware of the margins of error in a choice and planning for alternative outcomes is also rational sometimes.
I think it's possible if the right people are in charge. We need people in positions of power who value education not just for themselves but for everyone. Unfortunately, ruling classes tend to like keeping a large portion of their population dumb, which is great for having a large pool of laborers who won't challenge the status quo, but it blunts the critical thinking skills needed for rational decision making.
As we're talking about this topic in this context.. what's the evidence base?
I think the class system across the globe backs up what you're saying.
Not sure there's any evidence it can be different though, makes sense hypothetically, I'm not convinced it isn't more fundamental.
The people in power who look like they're shaping the system are perhaps just playing their role in that system too, just like the large pool of labourers.