A lot of these pastors have to be looking at their steadily declining congregations and thinking maybe it's not the kids who are wrong, after all.
this post was submitted on 07 Jul 2023
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That requires at least a mediocre amount of critical thinking skills and those are taboo in religious organizations, so doubt it.
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I have a pretty unique perspective on this as someone who's worked in churches my entire adult life. Probably the hardest interview question I've ever been asked--across both technical and non-technical interviews--was when I was interviewing to be the organist at a large UMC church in early 2019, right before the General Conference vote that set all of this off. They basically summarized the situation to me and then asked if I was comfortable coming into the position not knowing which way the vote would go. In many ways, this question felt like asking if I had principles and if I was willing to stick to them. As a progressive person, I had to really think about if I'd be ok being in a place where I wouldn't be allowed to play for a same-sex wedding.
That church's senior pastor was one of the leading figures in the movement to affirm LGBTQ members. We quietly performed at least one same-sex marriage while I was there, which was technically in defiance of the denomination's restrictions. Since then, I've moved to one of the most prominent progressive mainline Protestant megachurches in the US. We've had long standing partnerships with many LGTBQ organizations, and we do lots of tangible things for all sorts of underrepresented communities. We had a visiting trans pastor speak about a month ago, and they received an instant ovation from the congregation.
My point in all of this is that it frustrates me to see comment sections like much of this one where people insist that every church is a highly regressive place. As someone who's in the closed door meetings, I promise you that there are many that are not, and it's not just all a ploy to try to stay relevant in today's society. Some places really do support these causes because they believe in them.
(As a footnote, I'll say that I don't like to talk about my religious views online, as it might put me in a weird position with my current and potential future employers. An acquaintance of mine wrote a great blog post that sums up my feelings well.)
Your point is well-made, but I worry you're applying literal interpretation to rhetorical generalizing that require slightly deeper reading. For better or worse, humans like to make sweeping generalizations, and only in the most extreme instances do they legitimately believe they apply to everyone in that given population.
For example: The women tweeting about how "men suck" isn't thinking of every man that has ever existed; she knows men aren't a monolith; she has a picture in her mind of a particular type of man, one that has been a source of trauma for her and countless other women. If you know you aren't that type of man, then you know that her words aren't directed at you; the same principle, imo, applies to churches and religion.
Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, but on the whole religion is used as a tool of exclusion and oppression much more than it is used to promote compassion and progress. When people make generalizations about churches and religion, they're envisioning the regressive, bigoted zealot that has been the source of trauma for so many. The church you describe would not fall into that category, so try not to take such comments to heart.
I really like how you put this, and the example given.
So wait, are the churches that are leaving in support of the LGBTQ bans that they have? Or are they protesting them? Because the article wasn't totally clear but it seemed like the conservatives were the ones leaving.
So it's conservatives leaving because they can tell the winds of change are coming?
It's a lot deeper than that.
Since the 70s, there's been a couple lines in their Book of Discipline (central doctrine and interpretation) that say that people are to be loved, but the practice is homosexuality is "inconsistent with Christian teaching". We progressives have been trying to take that back out but the "traditionalists" play legislative games to prevent and real debate. On the flip side, it says nothing about trans people because progressives play the same games too keep their bigoted crap out.
Back in 2019 the UMC held a special General Conference to address the issue. The traditionalists paired up with churches from Africa and a couple other places to make things worse but also created an easy way to leave the denomination. Right after, they started the GMC denomination and started leaving the UMC . IOW, they shit the bed and then moved out.
It's really screwed up because the US congregations tend to be affirming and are shirking while the overseas congregations are more traditional but growing. They had the long term advantage. I think they just wanted to burn it all down. Think Steve Bannon and his desire to destroy the US government
There is also another layer of convoluted-ness to my understanding. Even though the homophobic churches won and prevented removal of anti-gay language, the homophobic churches in the US are all pissy as no one is enforcing it. Progressive UMC churches openly ignore and break the homophobic rules.
So the UMC has been bleeding churches from both ends in the US. I believe most have been homophobic churches running away because no one is enforcing their bigotry, but some are progressive churches which have left because they did not want to appear to support the bigotry still in the doctrine and to avoid any risk of the bigotry being enforced on them in the future.
Why do the "traditionalists" maintain such a horrid position on queer people? Heck, where did it even come from and why did it take hold? What's the appeal in shitting on queer people? ~Strawberry
The United Methodist Church wants to allow LGBT people to be members, the people splitting off don't. It is weirdly worded but there's a new conservative sect called the Global Methodist Church that's more anti gay and I would guess most of the churches splitting off are going to join that sect.
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I grew up and was quite active in the UMC. Seeing stories like this give me some hope that the church is finding it's way again after the evangelicals took over. The evangelicals seem to be the ones that are leaving, btw. I left long ago and consider myself non-religious due to the evangelical movement that's grown so powerful these days.
I decided to look up the church's position and found it here: [https://www.umc.org/en/content/ask-the-umc-what-is-the-churchs-position-on-homosexuality] Still leaves a lot to be desired, but it's a step in the right direction. Albeit very small step.
This comment section really gives me pause though. You don't have to agree with someone's spiritual or religious views, but you should respect them. Now, if those religious views are hateful and encourage violence, then yes by all means call them on their BS. I'll hold the bull-horn for you and have your back if things go sideways. But the hate and anger in this comment section was aimed at the people that are trying to change the church for the better, not those that left because they hate the LGBTQ+ folks. Seems folks forgot the humans.
If I may ask, why do you think evangelicals maintain their position on homosexuality? Any idea where it came from? ~Strawberry
A literal interpretation of the old testament bible. And the idea that a nearly 3000 year old collection of verbal teachings by a mostly tribal society is still applicable today. There are a lot of rules there that if they followed would lead to some hilarity. Some that would lead to a lot of heartache too. [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_actions_prohibited_by_the_Bible] The evangelicals ignore the parts of the new testament they don't like and the new covenant that Jesus represents. Read that as they ignore the parts about love and compassion for your fellow human; living with grace and kindness.
A literal interpretation of a mistranslation.
Multiple intentional mistranslations. Added to that cherry picking which gospels you want to add because some of them contradict the religion you're trying to build.
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No doubt the pro-hate faction considers this a win, seeing it as a purification of the church.
So be it. Let them rot in their spotless echo chambers.
As a former UMC, it's nice to see such a large chunk of them willing to break off rather than adopt pro-hatred policies.
I still think religion is generally pretty silly, but it's slightly less silly when it becomes a tool for enriching people's lives instead of making them hate themselves and others.
Actually, the one's breaking off are the conservative ones. They're mad because the main assembly won't enforce the homophobic rules. They're joining a splinter denomination that's more hardline.
Thank you for the correction.
Having grown up in a UMC church that hated the gays, I assumed otherwise. I'm glad to hear the majority are becoming more mainstream.
I don't know if it's a majority yet, but there's a significant enough number of progressives to make it a deal. So yeah, there's some hope there.
Not so United I guess
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