this post was submitted on 16 Oct 2023
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[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 89 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Back in 3rd Edition D&D there was a spell called "Holy Word" that could kill non-good creatures within a 40 foot radius of the caster, if the caster was sufficiently high level relative to the creatures. Good creatures were completely unaffected.

When tightly packed you can fit about 2000 people into a 40-foot-radius circle (total area is 5000 square feet). So one casting can deal with the population of a good-sized town. My gaming group speculated for a while about a society where it was a routine ritual to round up all the peasantry and nuke them with Holy Word to keep the population clear of evil. Never incorporated it into any campaigns, though. It's a bit of a sticky philosophical puzzler.

[–] melmi@lemmy.blahaj.zone 38 points 1 year ago (3 children)

This is a weird one because despite being a "good" spell, it entails the mass murder of innocent neutrals. It really doesn't seem like a good action to me.

It seems like anyone who was okay with this would fall to neutral or evil simply by virtue of being okay with mass murder, and in turn fall victim to the Great Neutral Purge.

[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Indeed, hence the sticky philosophical puzzler. I would think that the clerics themselves would start getting affected by the spell. Fortunately (for them), the effect of the spell when cast on someone of the same level as yourself is only deafness for 1d4 rounds. The Church could probably cover that up.

There was another interesting related situation that came up in an actual campaign I was in, involving the Blasphemy spell (a variant that only kills non-evil targets). My party and I were in our "home base", a mansion belonging to an allied NPC noblewoman, planning out our next excursion. A powerful demon we'd been tangling with attempted to scry-and-fry us, teleporting in and nuking us with Blasphemy. Unfortunately there were a lot of low-level NPC staff working in the noblewoman's household and the spell wiped them out instantly... except for one guy, who happened to be of evil alignment. He survived the encounter because of that.

Even though his alignment was evil, though, he'd never done anything wrong and didn't seem like he had any reason to do anything wrong in the future. So we weren't sure if we should fire him or what. It wasn't illegal to simply be evil, you had to actually do something evil before you could be punished. We just warned him we'd be keeping an eye on him, in the end, and kept him on staff.

[–] AlexisFR@jlai.lu 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm pretty sure if you aren't a creature from a celestial plane of evil or good, only your actions define your alignment, not the other way around.

[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Okay, he hadn't done anything wrong to us. I guess we could have paused the main campaign to spend a while investigating him, but we were doing one of those save-the-world things so we didn't have the time. :)

[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

What is being good except having self-imposed restrictions to avoid doing something evil? This spell seems perfect. There will rarely be a time where a good aligned character could justify using it in an overpowered way. If it were inverted then you would see evil characters using it all the time. It's a self-imposed balance. You have a very powerful tool, but you must avoid using unless absolutely necessary.

[–] melmi@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Ah, but there is an evil equivalent, Blasphemy. It affects non-evil creatures instead of non-good creatures, and as such has no self-balancing properties. There are even equivalents for Law and Chaos, which are... worryingly abstract.

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[–] The_Picard_Maneuver@startrek.website 19 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Only good? What about neutral alignment? (if that was a thing)

[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 50 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I hate these filthy Neutrals, Kif. With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals, who knows? It sickens me.

Here's the SRD entry for the spell. It definitely nukes the neutrals.

The evil equivalent is Blasphemy, which nukes all non-evil creatures. Yes, the neutrals get it from both sides.

Then there's Word of Chaos and Dictum, the Law and Chaos equivalents of those Good/Evil spells. Neutrals, believe it or not, death!

Pick a side, you neutral scum!

[–] The_Picard_Maneuver@startrek.website 25 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Good.

What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

[–] enki@lemm.ee 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] joelfromaus@aussie.zone 6 points 1 year ago

I have a sunny disposition that’s balanced out with depression. True neutral.

[–] RootBeerGuy@discuss.tchncs.de 7 points 1 year ago

All I know, my gut says maybe.

[–] sundrei@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 1 year ago

Well, my parents were worshipers of Ishtar, so I was kind of born into it...

[–] sammytheman666@ttrpg.network 10 points 1 year ago

Tell my wife I said... hello

[–] wahming@monyet.cc 5 points 1 year ago

The 'both sides are the same' idiots certainly deserve it

[–] josefo@leminal.space 3 points 1 year ago

I now want a campaign based on those 4 spells, as swords.

[–] abir_vandergriff 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I hate these filthy neutrals. With enemies you know where they stand, but with neutrals, who knows? It sickens me.

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[–] d20bard@ttrpg.network 11 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Another aspect of the puzzle is that not every evil deserves death. A bum who does minor theft almost as a habit, a hateful bitter man who antagonizes everyone but obeys the law, a teenager, a greedy business person who employs half the town but makes everyone's life a bit worse, and so on.

Good should have the self restraint to not go straight to murder.

[–] pinkdrunkenelephants@sopuli.xyz 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

a hateful bitter man who antagonizes everyone but obeys the law

As one of those hateful bitter people in the eyes of others who still is lawful, I emphatically tell you that we are evil and absolutely would and should be killed by Holy Word and other such spells.

a teenager

Wait, what?

Actually everyone on your list should be killed by that spell, even the teenager though I vehemently disagree with that.

Like you can sit there and quibble about what is actually evil or not but this is magic, and what matters is what the majority of people consider evil, and they all hit the mark. Most adults are ageist bigots who'd wipe out all teenagers on a dime if they could, for example, even though that's pretty evil.

Good and evil are honestly pretty meaningless.

[–] Knightfox@lemmy.one 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

That's what he's saying, the spell can't discern between the mass murderer and the lowly thief, the user of that spell should have the restraint to not jump straight murder. Not all evil beings deserve death.

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[–] TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Did you seriously say a bum who commits a minor theft deserves the death penalty? Or should I have more coffee?

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[–] TwilightVulpine@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Situations like this give me the inclination to treat D&D Good™ and Evil™ as physical properties rather than moral tendencies. D&D Good™ that is a little too eager to murder beings labeled as Evil™ falls short of what I would consider good. If someone used such power to kill someone who is a pathological liar and petty thief, that wouldn't seem good to me even if that person could be classified as Evil™ as the system defines it.

Then again while to me such act seems evil, I don't think I could call the caster Evil™ because D&D explicitly endorses killing Evil™ creatures as a Good™ act. Since the 1st edition, the purest paragon of Good™ that is the Paladin wields a weapon to kill.

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[–] bufalo1973@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago

I'd say "kill 'big' evil, stun 'normal' evil" would be a better spell.

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[–] Susaga@ttrpg.network 75 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

The sword's power changes with time, and as it racks up more kills. Soon, it gains a +1 to attack and damage. Then, it can become wreathed in flame as a bonus action. Then, it grants advantage to checks made to locate creatures. Then, its base power inverts and it can only kill non-evil creatures.

Do not tell the player about that last one. Insist to the player that it works exactly as you first described. The Paladin can kill innocent shopkeepers and little old ladies, but cannot kill this assassin working for the BBEG.

Will he question his own stab-first ask-later methods? Or will he turn evil without even noticing?

[–] KairuByte@lemmy.dbzer0.com 44 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I personally hate this kind of twist. If you need to actively lie to your player, not just mislead with some clever wordplay, it always feels like you’re breaking trust.

[–] CmdrUlle@feddit.de 12 points 1 year ago (8 children)

Why explain it in meta, instead of the old trustworthy totally-not-a-witch saying it only affects evil?

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[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 10 points 1 year ago

If I were doing this, I wouldn't describe the effects exactly (except the +1). I would just tell them it misses every time they attack a non-evil character first, and describe it being wreathed in flames. Then for the swap just tell them who it misses or hits still, but they have to figure out both times what the effect is (or that it changed).

[–] pinkdrunkenelephants@sopuli.xyz 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

As if you aren't evil by lying to the player.

And as if they won't successfully dispute it.

[–] Susaga@ttrpg.network 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Does the Paladin trust their blind faith in the weapon, or do they consider the morality of their actions by themselves? Consequentialism vs Deontologism, essentially. The lie reinforces the blind faith to make the situation work.

I put an ethical dilemma in front of a Paladin. I do not consider this evil.

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[–] optissima@possumpat.io 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Good thing the DM can't be stabbed by it! How would they dispute it without metagaming? Wouldn't that be a great plot arc?

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[–] PlexSheep@feddit.de 37 points 1 year ago

It makes perfect sense. The paladin found the exploit.

[–] explodicle@local106.com 23 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Without lawyers, the kingdom was unable to resolve disputes and fell into chaos.

Although the number of disputes did fall pretty dramatically too

[–] CileTheSane@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 year ago

All the lawyers had previously been stabbed.

[–] Rheios@ttrpg.network 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Have him stab the mayor who's evil because he's greedy and selfish and borderline abusive in trade-deals with neighboring regions but is otherwise beloved (and has rewards heaped on him) because he's so good at actually keeping order in the town and keeping their goodwill (although probably at least a little bit through some passive-aggressive blackmail). That's always fun.

[–] gullible@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

If one were to base their diet around moral responsibility, would eating only what the blade can cut be reasonable? Can it cut vegetables? Can animals be evil? Would training a cow to be evil in order to avoid starvation be morally justifiable?

[–] MouseKeyboard@ttrpg.network 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Training a creature to be evil so you can kill it is definitely evil.

[–] Bizarroland@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Okay but if this became common enough that every paladin had a sword that only killed evil things and they also had the restriction that they had to only eat what they killed then it would be a good thing to raise evil creatures as food sources for the paladins, even though the people doing the raising are doing an evil thing.

[–] MouseKeyboard@ttrpg.network 4 points 1 year ago

Then they're paying to sustain an evil industry, which is itself evil.

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[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

A paladin whose diet consists of roast demonflesh. Hm.

[–] gullible@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

TONIGHT… WE DINE IN HELL! TOMORROW, THE UNDERDARK. THAT CONCLUDES OUR ANNOUNCEMENTS FOR THE DAY.

[–] pinkdrunkenelephants@sopuli.xyz 8 points 1 year ago (3 children)

See, here's my problem with that: humanity is inherently evil so everyone would be killed by such a thing.

[–] optissima@possumpat.io 6 points 1 year ago

An human isn't humanity.

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