this post was submitted on 03 Jul 2023
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For the last few years franchise movies like star wars, marvel, etc. made money regardless of quality. However now it seems like audiences are being choosier when it comes to these kinds of tentpole releases. I've seen some people online say that the movie/theater industry is losing people in general but I don't think that's the case.

Super Mario and spiderverse made a lot of money. And Oppenheimer, Barbie, and Dune seem to be tracking well. I think the problem is that people are getting sick of the same old stuff and need more than just a brand name to go to the theater. What do you you think?

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[–] BobQuasit@kbin.social 52 points 1 year ago (6 children)

It's not superhero fatigue or franchise fatigue. It's bad writing fatigue. Seriously, I don't know why Hollywood keeps choosing terrible writers for huge projects, but as long as they are doing that they are going to keep getting what they deserve.

And speaking of huge projects, from what I've heard Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny cost $295 million to make rather than 250. And that's not counting publicity and marketing, which brings it to 400 million if not more. That means they need to make at least $800 million to break even. No matter how you slice their opening weekend, they are in huge trouble. And given that Elementals and The Little Mermaid both bombed hard along with most other Disney movies of the last few years, I'd say that Disney is in serious trouble too!

On the other hand, Guardians of the Galaxy 3 was rather well written, and from what I've heard it did rather well at the box office. Which is just more evidence that if you have a decently-written film the public WILL go and see it. We're just avoiding crap, that's all.

I'll go out on a limb and say that hauling poor old Harrison Ford away from his bong and forcing him at the age of 80 to make shitty movies is tantamount to elder abuse. As for The Flash, coddling wannabe cult leader and mental defective Ezra Miller was just the icing on the cake. The movie was just badly written.

Frantic last minute reshoots and rewrites are a dead giveaway that something is seriously wrong with a production. But that that is happening so often in Hollywood in the last several years is clear evidence that Hollywood itself has completely lost their way. I don't know if they can right that ship, and to be honest I don't much care. If they won't provide people with the good entertainment that they want, eventually somewhere else will. Maybe Bollywood or China.

[–] Granite@kbin.social 28 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

As someone in the industry, the tentpole execs do not give a shit about writing or even quality. They just imagine $$$ and hate risk, so they double down on what they already know. It’s a dumb decision from the outside looking in, but they literally can’t see that. Also, in the last 10-15 years, screenwriting has developed more into a gig economy than a FT job, so even finding good writers and keeping them around is tough as hell.

[–] Cube6392 9 points 1 year ago

And they wonder why the writers are on strike. The writers are the backbone of the industry. Its a business of storytelling and without them there arent stories to tell.

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[–] basic_spud@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Speak for yourself. I've been majorly burned out on super hero movies.

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[–] rikudou@lemmings.world 6 points 1 year ago

As for The Flash, coddling wannabe cult leader and mental defective Ezra Miller was just the icing on the cake.

Hey, let me keep believing that it's because people for once decided to be decent and skip it because of Ezra.

[–] Prouvaire@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

Seriously, I don't know why Hollywood keeps choosing terrible writers for huge projects

Don't worry, soon Hollywood won't be choosing writers at all. (Thanks ChatGPT!)

(Obviously I agree that good writing is fundamental to the success of a movie, with few exceptions.)

[–] UniDestroyer@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

which brings it to 400 million if not more. That means they need to make at least $800 million to break even.

400 million spent means 400 million to break even, no?

[–] dom@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 year ago

Presumably 800 gross

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[–] rikudou@lemmings.world 28 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Slightly off-topic, but didn't they claim something along the lines of "people will ignore that Ezra is a total piece of shit because of how great the movie is"?

[–] Solemn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Wow, you got me to Google the guy. I was expecting a bad incident or two, but the list just goes on and on.

[–] AndrewZabar 2 points 1 year ago

He’s mentally ill there’s no doubt about that. But it makes for good sensationalism so social media loves to just celebrate it.

[–] chickenwing@lemmy.film 9 points 1 year ago

WB was hyping it up like it was the greatest superhero film ever made. I've actually seen the movie and can assure you it is far from it. The whole thing felt like an inside joke from WB.

[–] fckgwrhqq2yxrkt 5 points 1 year ago

Oh wow, you weren't kidding. Not someone you'd want to be around for any length of time.

[–] kingmongoose7877@lemmy.film 22 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Could this be the beginning of the end for franchise films?

We can only hope.

'The Flash' and Other Mediocre Movies Won't Stop Superhero Fatigue - Variety. Fifteen years (since Iron Man), for the love of Stan! As Scorsese said, "…that’s not cinema…the closest I can think of them…is theme parks."

Fun fact: did you know that the (then) new distribution strategy invented for the iconic film The Godfather gave rise of the Blockbuster (and thus "franchise movies") and the near-death of auteur cinema?

!moviesnob@lemmy.film

[–] Prouvaire@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago (5 children)

@kingmongoose7877 Of course Scorsese's mastery, knowledge and love of movies is matched by few and surpassed by none. But I do find it amusing that the he criticises lowbrow superhero genre movies when every third film he makes has a bunch of Irish or Italian guys telling each other to fuhgeddaboudit, then shooting each other in the head. (Yes, I'm exaggerating, but not by that much.)

My point? There are bad, mediocre and good superhero movies, just as there are bad, mediocre and good gangster movies. And every so often there are great genre movies, like The Godfather, or - for my money - Logan (which I think deserved Oscar nominations for picture, director, adapted screenplay, actor, supporting actor and supporting actress).

And, basically, you just need a lot of movies to be made before a masterpiece is produced. For how many decades were westerns a popular genre? Were directors complaining about the guns'n'horses theme parks in the 1950s? Most westerns that were made over that time have been forgotten, but the great ones like Shane or Unforgiven live on. In fifty years most superheroes will have been forgotten, but a handful will live on.

To address @chickenwing 's post more directly: I remember reading articles a few years ago about how the age of the movie star was dead (Tom Cruise being cited as one of a few exceptions), and that the age of the franchise/brand (Marvel, Star Wars, Pixar) had arrived. If the age of the franchise is dying, what will rise to take its place?

[–] chickenwing@lemmy.film 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

My hope is that like in the 70's American New Wave the studios panic and start doing weird experimental stuff with young directors. That's where a lot of the big name directors came from today. Back then US directors copied what the French were doing and it got people back in theaters. If I were a director I'd look at South Korean films there has been a ton of great films come out of there in the last 20 years or so.

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[–] rikudou@lemmings.world 2 points 1 year ago

If the age of the franchise is dying, what will rise to take its place?

The age of good writing! Or am I too optimistic?

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[–] WytchStar@kbin.social 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Every time a sequel or a comic book movie lands on its face, someone rewrites an article about franchise/superhero fatigue. And that's been going on for over a decade.

People will show up to watch a good movie. Guardians 3 did really well. Spider-Man is the "same old stuff." This is all cherry picking examples. Movies don't do well when they're bad or the star is unappealing somehow.

Hollywood will stop making these movies when people stop paying to see them.

[–] chickenwing@lemmy.film 6 points 1 year ago

I think Guardians 3 and Spiderverse may be exceptions though. Spiderverse has a cool visual style that makes it stand out and is riding of the goodwill of the last film. Guardians 3 is the last guardians film and I've seen a lot of people say it was the last marvel film they were interested in. I think audiences might need more motivation than just a marvel logo now. Captain Marvel got over a billion dollars while marvel was on the hype train but I doubt the sequel does that well.

[–] wheresbicki@midwest.social 18 points 1 year ago

Maybe Film studios should make more effort on lower budget movies instead of reviving old franchises and making commercial movies (Air, Blackberry, Barbie, Mario, etc).

[–] Ducks@ducks.dev 15 points 1 year ago

I don't think it has anything to do with being franchise films. Studios just need to make good films and people will see them.

Spider-Man made 600m WW so far which isn't too shabby. That has to contend with superhero fatigue as well as franchise fatigue.

[–] mastens@kbin.social 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think the audience is simply being smarter with their money. A bunch of recent franchise movies have missed the mark and the audience is saying as much.

Super Mario
Dune
Across the Spiderverse

All franchises. But they have so far given their target audience what they've wanted.

Why go see Flash when it'll show up on Max (or whatever) same with Indiana Jones which will be in Disney+ soon enough.

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[–] magnetosphere@kbin.social 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

It’s annoying that some people are so small-minded that they only think one style of filmmaking counts as “real cinema”. Just like there are different genres of film (like comedy, horror, drama, etc.), there’s room for different styles of film as well.

Too many people seem to think that just because two things can be projected on a screen, it’s reasonable to compare them. Some also believe that one kind of film is objectively better than another.

No. Neither of those things are true.

Films provide room for a wide range of creativity, whether they’re loud, big-budget extravaganzas with broad appeal, or quiet, intimate, narrowly focused films intended for a smaller audience - or something in between.

I don’t understand why there’s even an argument about which type of film is best. If you’re like me, you enjoy several different things, depending on your mood.

[–] ddugue@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago

I think the issue is mostly about what is art?

Some of the big budget movies feel devoid of creativity and are more a product than a work of art. While I do agree with you that there is some art in those big budget, I think the issue lies in how we communicate a movie.

What is a "good" movie? That's entirely subjective! A better approach would be to explain what you liked (or disliked) about it. Then we can have more productive conversations about it ahah

[–] AlternativeEmphasis@kbin.social 12 points 1 year ago

Maybe, I honestly love going to the movies but it seems the age of the generic blockbuster is done really. It's nearly all sequels or franchises. I want to wathc something not particulary groundbreaking but still interesting and not need to watch it's five previous movies.

The last movie I felt scratched that itch for me was the DnD movie which was relatively detached. I like movies like that and I wish there were more. Don't get me wrong I like a good franchise but when everything is a franchise it's maddening.

[–] wolfteeth@lemmy.film 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

i would love to see revivals of old franchises go the way of the dodo. i am as nostalgic as any millennial but if i want to see indiana jones or ghostbusters or whatever, i'll just watch the originals.

i don't think the superhero franchises are going anywhere, unfortunately. they are still reliable, even with some people losing interest over time. it seems like a good moneymaking bet for disney at least. and all the studios seem really risk-averse lately, more than they used to be.

[–] Deed@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I'd more interested in MCU stuff if they tried something new with them. It's why guardians as a franchise did so well. The cracks really started showing id argue with captain marvel.

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[–] Littleborat@feddit.de 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

There are only two good indy movies and that's raiders and the last crusade.

Anything else was crap and crap Indiana Jones movies are nothing new.

Dune and so on are objectively good movies even though they play the hobbit tactic with dune releasing only half the book.

Why people like avengers and marvel and these movies I have no idea. Only a select few of these movies are watchable.

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[–] jordanlund@lemmy.one 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Indy is failing not because it's a franchise, but because the audience for an 80 year old Harrison Ford is not going to the theater.

Flash failed for reasons other than it being part of a franchise. It failed because that franchise is not well liked, and in fact is in the process of being replaced.

Also, Ezra Miller is apparently a giant dick bag, turning off audiences.

I expect Blue Beetle will do worse due to featuring a character 90% of the movie going audience is unaware of, based on characters 99.9% are unaware of. At best people will go "So it's an Iron Man / Spider-Man ripoff?"

Aquaman is the last of this generation of DC movies, hard to tell how it will turn out. The first one was the ONLY ONE of the DC films to hit the big $Billion mark.

Man of Steel - $668M
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt0770828/?ref_=bo_se_r_1

Batman V Superman - $873M
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt2975590/?ref_=bo_se_r_1

Suicide Squad - $746M
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt1386697/?ref_=bo_se_r_1

Wonder Woman - $822M
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt0451279/?ref_=bo_se_r_1

Justice League - $657M
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt0974015/?ref_=bo_se_r_1

Aquaman - $1.148B
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt1477834/?ref_=bo_se_r_1

Shazam - $367M
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt0448115/?ref_=bo_se_r_1

Birds of Prey - $205M
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt7713068/?ref_=bo_se_r_1

Wonder Woman 1984 - $169M
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt7126948/?ref_=bo_se_r_2

The Suicide Squad - $168M
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt6334354/?ref_=bo_se_r_1

Black Adam - $393M
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt6443346/?ref_=bo_se_r_1

Shazam: Fury of the Gods - $133M
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt10151854/?ref_=bo_se_r_2

The Flash - $245M and counting:
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/title/tt0439572/?ref_=bo_se_r_1

Edit I should say, both Birds of Prey and the Suicide Squad deserved better. Victims of covid and day/date streaming.

WW84 can die in a fire though.

[–] chickenwing@lemmy.film 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Fair point about DC and Indy but Disney has had a few flops recently as well. Pixar isn't a franchise but it was definitely a brand that normally would bring people to the theaters with just the name alone. Now they are struggling to get people to come to the theaters.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.one 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Oh, definitely. In my mind Pixar hasn't had a really good movie since Coco.

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[–] driving_crooner@lemmy.eco.br 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I think Ezra Miller is a great actor, but in small indie films, where he can act the problematic individual he's outside the screen. Whorever decided to cast him off for big budget summer blockbusters should be fired.

[–] jordanlund@lemmy.one 3 points 1 year ago

They actually did a decent job in the Flash. It's tricky playing an 18/19 year old version of the main adult character on screen at the same time.

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[–] NuPNuA@lemm.ee 9 points 1 year ago

No, Indiana Jones is a terrible example to base those on. It's a franchise who's last good film was in the 80s and most people hated the last attempted comeback.

[–] ryanspeck@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You're making the assumption that, since the pandemic ended, people actually want to go to the theater to see movies. They demonstrably do not. People will not go to see a movie they're interested in in the theater; they will only go to the theater to see a movie they are absolutely driven to see immediately. It has to have huge visual spectacle and be truly worthy of their time to waste the time and money to sit in a theater, which no one seems to want to do anymore. It has to be something that needs to be seen on a large screen.

I'm sure Dune will do well later this year and there's been plenty of movies recently that did fine in theaters. But there's going to be plenty more along the way that fall by the wayside despite the fact that they would have been tent pole pictures with guaranteed box office in past years. But people aren't going to show up for things like Indiana Jones or Flash after major failures previously in both of those series.

[–] rikudou@lemmings.world 6 points 1 year ago

I'm so excited for Dune, definitely going to the cinema.

[–] StoicSpork@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't think people are sick of the same old stuff. Indy flopped at the box office on the combination of a disappointing 4th movie and Disney's trend of virtue signalling over good characterization and storytelling.

The Flash has the baggage of an unlikeable lead actor, plus the DCU is still all over the place and constantly rebooted. I honestly have no idea what to expect from the Flash, given previous DCU movies.

[–] bathrobe@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@StoicSpork

@chickenwing

Someone who says virtue signaling unironically is the dumbest fuck in the room, no matter what room they’re in.

[–] chunkystyles@sopuli.xyz 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Wait, is having a woman in the movie virtue signaling? I haven't seen it to know.

[–] BenVimes@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

There are only two genders: male and political.

[–] Twitchy1@lemmy.fmhy.ml 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Flash I had no interest in seeing, never got into the series or story... Indiana Jones to bring back now, from my point of view (especially after Ford's Star wars horrible return) felt like dragging him out as a big name to drum up ticket sales. New movies and storylines are a risk, it's safer to stick with what has sold for years I guess. I haven't looked but how did ghostbusters do recently?

[–] chickenwing@lemmy.film 4 points 1 year ago

I think Ghostbusters did ok but I think this phenomenon of people avoiding franchises started after that movie, around Antman 3.

[–] NumbersCanBeFun@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

The only movie I was willing to see was the Mario movie and I still ended up torrenting it. Why should I go to a public theater, get ripped off at the ticket box and the food counter for some mild entertainment? Especially when I can cook up an entire meal at home and eat it in front of the TV.

Better food, more comfortable, private setting and most importantly, Cost effective. If you want to get people like me to go to a theater, the incentive better be worth it. I won’t open my wallet otherwise.

[–] NotAPenguin@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

For a sec I thought Indiana Jones and Flash was one title

[–] InfiniWheel@lemmy.one 4 points 1 year ago

Its 5head marketing for Oppenheimer

super mario is like 40 years old and spiderman is even older, so I'm not sure they really count as "something new" as far as franchises go.

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