this post was submitted on 07 Jul 2023
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[–] maegul@lemmy.ml 124 points 2 years ago (4 children)

Ok ... so I think false preconceptions are polluting this topic. Apart from the passwords, nothing serious has happened here for your data. As for the DMs ... yea there aren't DMs with any real privacy on the fediverse, they don't exist ... you should presume DMs are public.

Because the fediverse is not in any way private. See for a good treatment of this: https://blog.bloonface.com/2023/07/04/the-fediverse-is-a-privacy-nightmare/

The basic story is that the fediverse is all about duplicating what we post all over the place ... essentially to anyone who decides to run a server on the fediverse. The FBI could (and probably do?) have a server scooping up all sorts of stuff onto their server and you wouldn't know about and probably couldn't do much about it. Google is scraping mastodon (and probably lemmy?) ... try a google search for mastoodn content.

This is all public internet stuff, you're basically running a public blog that happens to be well connected to lots of other public blogs.

As nice as the fediverse is as a nice anti-capitalist-big-corp monopolisation of our social online lives ... it is very much born out of the web2.0 era and doesn't have any of the privacy concerns many of us would now hope for from technologies.

I've argued this elsewhere ... I like the fediverse and am here out of principle ... but in many ways it highlights some of the failings of our world at this time ... because it's about 10 years too late and the future is coming in hot and fast ... in retrospect I wouldn't be surprised if it will make a lot of sense to look back on the fediverse and think that it was effectively redundant at just about the time it gained popularity. An AI dominated internet with massive privacy concerns is here very soon, and the fediverse isn't ready IMO, it's still trying to catch up to web2.0 big social circa 2010.

[–] sub_ubi@lemmy.ml 17 points 2 years ago (1 children)

What about 2013 seemed more favorable to the fediverse than now? Twitter, reddit and Facebook were pretty useful at that time - I don't think I'd have left.

[–] maegul@lemmy.ml 34 points 2 years ago

Principles. That the whole internet and all of the freedom and diversity it can harbour was being monopolised by big giant corporations that had no interest in embracing an open web. Instead, they were convincing the world, especially those growing up in that/this era that the internet had to be constrained to the few walled gardens of big platforms.

These principles were as obvious and relevant then as they are now. Unfortunately convenience is a helluva drug. And, in the "Google" era of the internet (~2005-2020 ?), there was a certain naive optimism about big-tech and the internet, which no doubt lulled us in by its being "free".

In reality, we all really thought that good and useful world-changing stuff was just going to be made for us for free. That the internet was going to inexorably make the world a better place. It was dumb and naive IMO and marks very well the failings of the Millennial generation (to which I belong FWIW). Unfortunately, it's a lesson we had to learn the hardway. There were probably only a handful of people in the world that understood what the new industry was actually doing and was actually about and that had the philosophical will and ability to think it through and communicate to the masses what the choices we were actually making.

[–] NotBadAndYou@lemmy.fmhy.ml 8 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (4 children)

If the fediverse represents the soon-to-be-replaced web 2.0 of the past, what do you see replacing it and why do you think that will be incompatible with the fediverse apps?

I could see some block chain security/authentication features added to federated apps, and hopefully end-to-end encrypted DMs will be enabled by that same technology too. I'm just having a hard time imagining something "new" that will replace this completely.

There will probably be several TikTok-like entertainment platforms, likely filled with ad-friendly AI generated content that is 100% under corporate control and costs almost nothing to produce, but that type of platform attracts a different audience than what we have here.

[–] maegul@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago

I don't think the fediverse necessarily needs to be replaced. We still have, afterall, Twitter going hard and strong after nearly 20 years! THe fediverse may very well go strong for many years to come, and that'd be a good thing ... it's nice!!

In an ideal world ... what would replace this? IMO, technology that basically gives every person a secure home on the internet in the same way that (most of us) can have a secure home in real life. Control, ownership and privacy over what you consume and publish and how. That technology would need to involve a number of things on a number of levels, but I'd bet it's quite viable today, it just needs buy-in and people to have the time and resources to build it.

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[–] dingdongitsabear@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago (1 children)

thanks for the link, explains it very well. how bout my activity, like IP address, up/down votes, clicks on links, favorites and whatnot, is that federated around or how does that work, i.e. who has access to it?

[–] alex@agora.nop.chat 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Up and down votes are federated with your username, along with posts and comments (obviously).

Clicking on links, favourites, email address (if you put one in when signing up), password and IP address are all only on your local instance.

Basically, unless another server needs to know about it for federation to work, it's going to be local to the instance you're using.

[–] drwho 6 points 2 years ago

As far as I know (which isn't too far, because I'm not a Beltway bandit anymore), the Fediverse isn't on the FBI's radar in any meaningful way. It /might/ be on the radar of the information contractors they hire for bulk data gathering and analysis (Palantir, ZeroFox, Dataminr, probably others these days) but none of me have heard anything specific.

[–] DeadGemini@waveform.social 32 points 2 years ago (1 children)

[...] This is exactly what the admins over at Kolektiva.social have done and now one of them has been raided and charged by the FBI for activities unrelated to Mastodon

Clickbait.

[–] raresbears@iusearchlinux.fyi 13 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] DeadGemini@waveform.social 28 points 2 years ago

Yes, but the title makes it sound like it was because he was running an anarchist Mastodon instance. That's not why, he just happened to be doing a backup when he was raided, the backup was unencrypted, and they seized it. Has nothing to do with him running an anarchist instance from what I can tell.

[–] Dohnakun@lemmy.fmhy.ml 30 points 2 years ago (2 children)

You aren't allowed to have anarchist worldviews in the US?

[–] hglman@lemmy.ml 37 points 2 years ago (2 children)

In mid-May 2023, the home of one of Kolektiva.social's admins was raided, and all their electronics were seized by the FBI. The raid was part of an investigation into a local protest. Kolektiva was neither a subject nor target of this investigation. Today, that admin was charged in relation to their alleged participation in this protest.

[–] Lols@lemm.ee 19 points 2 years ago
[–] p03locke@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 2 years ago

The raid was part of an investigation into a local protest.

Protests are illegal? Since when?

[–] breakingcups@lemmy.fmhy.ml 21 points 2 years ago

It says he was arrested for activities unrelated to Mastodon, just happened to be working on an unencrypted backup which was also seized. No clue why he was arrested.

[–] k_o_t@lemmy.ml 29 points 2 years ago (1 children)

mfs doing stuff like this really need to stop living in america bruh 💀

[–] jjagaimo@lemmy.ca 11 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Wait til you hear about extradition

[–] ag_roberston_author 8 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] mihor@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago

Of course Slovenia is a part of the extradition club, why should we ever be free from fascism? 😖

[–] k_o_t@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 years ago

plenty of places w/ no extradition 🤷‍♀️

[–] altima_neo@lemmy.zip 26 points 2 years ago (5 children)

Well thats worrying for everyone federated with them.

[–] Hubi@feddit.de 45 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Is it? As far as I know, identifying data such as IP addresses are not transmitted between instances.

[–] shortwavesurfer@monero.town 4 points 2 years ago

The only instance that knows your IP and has your hashed password is the one you signed up on

[–] eee@lemm.ee 27 points 2 years ago

oh no! they have all the posts that people publicly posted onto the Internet!

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[–] sub_ubi@lemmy.ml 22 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (3 children)

FBI claiming it's for non-Mastodon related reasons, but that could be a cover. https://kolektiva.social is still up

Regardless, I don't think they even have to ask to get this sort of data from any of the big platforms.

[–] SteveKLord@slrpnk.net 14 points 2 years ago (1 children)

There was never any lag in service. I'm on that instance. I believe the person was raided due to their activism and had a backup of some data but not the actual server. They made an announcement and told people to change their passwords. Many lost a degree of trust but are being as transparent as possible with members. https://kolektiva.social/@admin/110637031574056150

[–] JackbyDev@programming.dev 14 points 2 years ago

Yeah, what the fuck are you supposed to do? Ask the FBI to please come back later?

It's a good reminder for folks with concerns to not say anything on a platform that isn't end-to-end encrypted that you don't want folks finding out about, to not use an email you don't want associated with yourself, and to use some sort.of VPN or Tor if you need to hide your IP address.

And if course use unique passwords but I would really hope people do that already.

[–] ezmack@lemmy.ml 13 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Yeah the 'happened to have a bunch of unencrypted data laying around' bit seems odd. Would make sense if they got picked up for something else and that was the bargain. Fucked if I know though

[–] drwho 6 points 2 years ago

Not really? If you're trying to debug something, or if you're gearing up for an upgrade (like the Mastodon upgrade this week that's giving a lot of admins grief) it's plausible to have one of your backups locally to mess around with. As an example of this principle, I run Part-DB-server to manage my workshop inventory. For various reasons I migrated from a hosted MySQL database to a local SQLite database, and I'm in the process of moving back to the MySQL database. To facilitate this I have a copy of the SQLite database that, as needed, I run SELECTs on to backfill details on entries. I have a local copy of that database on my laptop, in other words.

It's also plausible that the kolektiva.social admin was mocking up a clone of the service on their laptop to test something.

Without more data (gentlebeings, start your FOIA requests) I'm not sure that it's a good idea to speculate. We might learn something that we can use later.

[–] Floon@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

You're almost right: they do have to ask. They get a warrant, and they ask, and they are never told no.

[–] Stanley_Pain@lemmy.dbzer0.com 16 points 2 years ago (1 children)

What did they get raided for?

[–] ezmack@lemmy.ml 16 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Something involving a local protest here's the post announcing what happened https://kolektiva.social/@admin/110637031574056150

[–] sub_ubi@lemmy.ml 23 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Unfortunately, at the time of the raid, our admin was troubleshooting an issue and working with a backup copy of the Kolektiva.social database. This backup, dated from the first week of May 2023, was in an unencrypted state when the raid occurred and it was seized, along with everything else.

Oh the FBI just happened to visit when they unencrypted the database? How convenient!

[–] drwho 4 points 2 years ago

The FBI surveils targets prior to executing raids. It's possible they deduced that there was some useful information available on the target's laptop and acted in such a way to capture it easily.

[–] plexithron@lemmy.ml 13 points 2 years ago (1 children)

How is the data handled on Lemmy compared to Mastodon?

[–] SkyNTP@lemmy.ml 38 points 2 years ago (5 children)

Probably the same. This bears repeating: All your information online is and always has been available for others to collect and see, from FBI to advertisers. If you want any amount of protection, it must be with E2E encryption for which you own the keys.

We taught online safety in the 90s. Did we all just collectively forget this in the last two decades?

[–] MadgePickles@lemmy.dbzer0.com 13 points 2 years ago (2 children)

They stopped teaching about computers. I tutored high schoolers about 10 years ago and they didn't know how to use computers fluently. It moved to the realm of expecting parents to teach to their kids along with taxes and career planning.

Speaking of which, I grew up in the 90s pre Internet, and started using the Internet in middle school. Definitely never got any official Internet safety lessons. Maybe I was a little too early? Idk. But by the time I was 30 schools were not teaching this at least from what I saw

[–] AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net 8 points 2 years ago (3 children)

The other day, I spoke to an 18 year old who didn't know the difference between "copy and paste" and "cut and paste". I want to know what the hell they're doing in IT classes. Do they just assume that kids these days are good at tech because it's so ubiquitous? Because that's a dangerous assumption

[–] MadgePickles@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 2 years ago

I don't know that they have classes like that

[–] imperator 2 points 2 years ago

I work in Finance for a big corp. I have people who indirectly work for me that also don't know this and they're older than me. It's crazy.

[–] grysbok@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 2 years ago

I've taught multiple college students how to copy and paste.

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[–] Stelus42@lemmy.ca 9 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Yeah pretty much. As soon as facebook broke the ice on "never use your real name on the internet" it was over. Now we have entire generations that were introduced to the internet as one that was ruled by social media sites. They were never even taught the same online safety stuff that we grew up with.

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[–] mustyOrange 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

For real. The goal is to not say anything online that you'd regret coming out to public in a worst case scenario. Also, account switching every few months is a good habit as well.

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[–] adespoton@lemmy.ca 11 points 2 years ago

And that’s why it’s good to join a small instance that aligns well with your privacy stance.

[–] alehel 8 points 2 years ago

You need to consider anything and everything you post to the Fediverse to be part of a public, everlasting record. At least in it's current state, the Fediverse is not the place for privacy oriented users.

[–] fugepe@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago

The fed glowing N. Why am I not surprised. Never fully trust your government

[–] shortwavesurfer@monero.town 6 points 2 years ago

Screw the FBI. As long as the admin in their activism wasnt breaking the NAP i see no problems. "Anarchists" are not for chaos, they just want no governmyth

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