Asklemmy

While I would understand your reasoning for doing so, I would be disappointed to see it happen. There's decent discussions on Beehaw that I enjoy taking part in, however if you guys decided to defederate or switch to a different platform entirely, I doubt that I would make another account somewhere else to follow. I like Beehaw's content, but I have enough accounts to keep track of these days after everything split from Reddit, so it would ultimately be a loss for me.

I'm not sure if this is a commonly-held opinion for those of us outside of Beehaw, though.

I'm subbed to some communities on Beehaw and I would miss them. But not enough to make an account on Beehaw to get them back.

Right now, we feel that Lemmy and ActivityPub have downsides that are limiting us from achieving that goal.

Could you expand on this? How exactly does these things prevent you from Being Nice, if that's the goal of your community?

I feel like I've given my answer to this question regarding Beehaw once before...

But as I see it, the main driving force and overall source of value for services like Lemmy, Kbin, Mastodon, etc., is federation. That is to say, federation among a wide variety of different users and servers across the fediverse using protocols like ActivityPub is what sets this entire thing apart from legacy centralized and corporate social media, like Reddit or "X".

I was initially on Beehaw myself and I liked the mature and kind atmosphere, but I ended up splitting for Kbin due to issues with defederation (on top of being curious and interested in Kbin as an alternative software to lemmy). But whether we're talking about "Beehaw.org" or "Kbin.social", in my view the federation is a huge part of the appeal, and I wouldn't see myself continuing to use a server if it cut itself off from the rest of the network, regardless of whether they did it for "good reasons" or not.

Like, if Beehaw wants to be just a significantly smaller and more highly moderated centralized alternative to Reddit, that feels like a pretty weak pitch which, at best, might end up with a community roughly the size of a classic forum. I'm not really interested in that. I want the Fediverse to succeed as a decentralized, open, scalable, and community-moderated alternative to legacy social media. Frankly, my interest in Beehaw as a community hinges completely on it being a part of that movement or not.

I can understand how federation may have posed significant challenges towards your goal of detailed moderation and creating a safe and friendly space, but only in the sense that you were possibly not fully prepared for the level of exposure to a large number of federated users. But even so, if Beehaw is ever to grow into something bigger (which, to be honest, is not a given, especially if you set out on your own as just another disconnected and insular social media website), you will eventually have to deal with the harsh reality that the kind of moderation that you're interested in doing is going to be a significant challenge as your community scales, federated or not. (For example, you may be prepared to moderate content in English, but are you prepared to moderate content in other languages? How will you know when someone starts spreading disinformation and hate speech in Burmese?)

Finally, I think you might want to consider the general movement towards federated social media. Between ActivityPub and the Fediverse, Meta's interest in federating Threads, BlueSky being developed around federation to some extent, federation support in things like WordPress, and a number of other social media platforms tip-toeing their way into the idea, I personally feel that there is a pretty interesting paradigm shift happening right now. Some of that has to do with moderation, responsibility and government pressure on big tech, I think.

But nevertheless, social media is gradually moving towards federation, and I think that's a good thing for the internet as a whole. You nice people at Beehaw will really have to search yourselves to determine whether you see the value in federation (both in terms of connecting people, but also in terms of allowing various communities to self-moderate to some extent) or not.

I do hope you'll stay, even though it means facing the growing pains of moderation challenges sooner rather than later, because the fediverse is better with us all connected and communicating together. I'll be sticking with the fediverse with or without Beehaw, but I do wish you all luck in your goals should you decide to set out on your own.

Beehaw is my home in the fediverse, and I'm happy here. I like that they try to maintain a positive community. But if Beehaw left the fediverse, I wouldn't come along. Which is a change from thinking I might last time I saw this topic come up.

If beehaw ends up in a silo I think it will just have too little to offer for me. And that's ok. This isn't about me, it's about creating a safe space for your disenfranchised users.

I hope Beehaw stays, but I understand if they don't.

i've enjoyed the beehaw peeps, but im certainly not going to make an account. the instance would be missed.

i am moving away from walled gardens, not towards them.

I'd leave Beehaw 🤓

It's not nearly big enough to be its own thing, and since the "quality" of posters is no better than other instances at this point, there woild be no reason to stay. I would certainly miss the communities there tho.

Also, Tildes is not a very good site to look up to. Why would anyone want another admin power-tripping place online?

After many hours of talks, it became clear that our overall goal could be achieved outside of Lemmy/ActivityPub.

Right now, we feel that Lemmy and ActivityPub have downsides that are limiting us from achieving that goal.

I have two questions.

1. What are your long-term goals for your platform?

2. What are the downsides to Lemmy/ActivityPub stopping you from reaching those goals?

Also to answer the main question I'd like for it to stay but at the same time, the last time I checked Beehaw had around 700-ish Monthly active users. That means there probably wouldn't be that much of an impact on the general discourse of Lemmy more broadly.

That seems like enough to sustain a pretty big community on a private server even if about half of you left. So if you guys do decide to leave I wish you the best.

I don't think you guys cared when you defederated from the rest of the fediverse and turned up your nose at everyone else. I'm not sure why you care now. You guys go and do your thing, but I don't think you're very relevant to the fediverse.

You speak very vaguely, and I don't think you're being fully honest with your reasoning, but by this point, I don't think it really matters.

I would be disappointed. I like the content from Beehaw and I enjoy being able to see it in my federated feed. I also think Beehaw fits a good niche in the Fediverse that would otherwise leave a hole if it was not there. I also think beehaw is a good influence on the Fediverse as a whole.

Have you considered that a part of your goal could be to make things better for disenfranchised people in a more general way? I think your presence in the Fediverse has a positive effect that goes beyond your own instance. And I think that's worth preserving.

You don't really explain why activityPub is limiting you. It's hard to help you here.

I think it would be a real shame, and would fragment the fediverse as a whole - some of Beehaw's communities are some of the best on the Fediverse (and I really appreciate the work of the mods of communities on Beehaw), but the Fediverse / Lemmyverse is a lot bigger than just the Beehaw instance, and I really like being able to participate in communities from all over. Having to create accounts separately on lots of walled garden instances is probably not worth it, so I think it would make both Beehaw and the rest of the Fediverse weaker.

Overall I'd be sad about it, and discourage, but I'm sure the fediverse would live on despite it, in a weakened form.

Perhaps the real question is why would you consider doing that? It seems like a lose/lose for everyone. Would you be able to elaborate on what the exact problem you are trying to solve is? Perhaps the community could help you come up with a better solution.

Beehaw is cool but I don't see it as a unique enough thing to draw me off the fediverse. To me it's just reddit if every user was a reddit mod. The discussion is only nice because anything else is met with heavy handed moderation. Since beehaw is defederated from majority of the fediverse it would make no difference if they left.

As a non-Beehaw I would like you to stay because I like nice people. But I understand if you have to go.

I replied to another user, but I'm sharing it in a main reply to add my voice to the base level comments.

I want a safe place to be, while looking out into a wider sea of content (albeit through the filter of Beehaw’s defederation, which I really appreciate). When the trolls and the assholes get too much, I like to be able to retreat back to just Local feed setting and be safe again. If beehaw was to be a separate platform, I’d lose that.

Beehaw is a shining beacon in an ocean of content, good and bad. I’d love that beacon to remain, so more people can find safety here if they need it.

I hardly frequent any of your communities, but I enjoy the contributions of most of your users and will be sad if they go.

That said, I would consider staying on - and contributing to - the Lemmy software regardless of federation. We are all experiencing the same issues with lack moderation and other features, and I hate to see effort go to waste.

🤷‍♂️

Instances will come and go.

I would like to hear more about what the limitations of ActivityPub are that you feel justifies taking away all the federated lemmy content from your users though.

Speaking as an admin, the only thing I view as my responsibility is removing spam/scams and making sure the instance is running and improving. Taking away/moderating what our users can see is something we want to avoid as much as possible (as long as it doesn't break instance rules of course), so what your team is discussing sounds quite radical.

What's a Beehaw?

I'd miss you guys. I've jumped in on conversations on your instance a couple of times and it always seems like a nice place

Do what you feel you need to do. Beehaw was my first Lemmy instance, although I have since left. What I initially liked about it was that there was active moderation and the admins seemed to do a good job keeping things running. It was a chill place that didn’t really appeal to the more toxic types you run into on the internet. It was like a friendly little bubble and a good home base in the fediverse.

While I appreciated that toxic instances were blocked, I felt blocking instances simply because they didn’t have great moderation was a little too much. It meant I was missing out on a lot of good content too. I understand the decision but I realized then that the original Beehaw community was more content to be insulated than I was. For a lot of people there, it was more important to have their own tight community than to be part of the fediverse. There’s no hard feelings about it. I enjoyed my time on Beehaw and contributed to server costs. I found another good instance that’s better federated and manages not to have a bunch of nazi and racist garbage so it’s all good.

These conversations have been brewing for a while at Beehaw. I would imagine a lot of the people who don’t especially like the insulated approach have moved on to other instances or created alt accounts for when they want to interact with the larger fediverse.

I don’t think anyone will miss anything if Beehaw migrates to a non-federated platform.

I already mentioned this on an old Beehaw thread, that Beehaw's vision would be better suited to old-school forums, like phpBB, Invision etc (no Discourse please, it sucks). Forums are more conducive for long-term discussions and offer far better user access controls and mod tools.

General-purpose old-school forums are mostly dead these days unfortunately but I see an opportunity in Beehaw for them to make a comeback, and I would 100% support such an initiative.

I'm on kbin, but have enjoyed the discussions I've had or read on beehaw. I've mostly lurked.

You're clearly trying to get social media right, and I respect that. Obviously it would be a loss for the fediverse if you left, however you are volunteers, it is your community. You owe the fediverse nothing. You should put the safety of your own users first.

If you do leave the fediverse for good, please let us know. I would consider joining beehaw or another forum/community to join/follow some of the discussions I've seen on beehaw. Especially discussions on sensitive topics that are harder to have in other parts of the fediverse.

The one thing I will say, is that leaving the fediverse will make you less known/accessible to people who need a safe online community. Of course, I suspect it'll also keep out some of the people who cause more moderation and safety concerns. So it's quite a dilemna.

To all the thoughts here already I’m going to ask something that may be wrong and may also be somewhat rude and or hurtful to the person/people it implicitly targets (which isn’t my intention unfortunately) … but which I feel is the tiny elephant in the room:

How much is the beehaw motive to leave the fediverse driven by a small and relatively unchallenged voice from technical person/people in the beehaw team who doesn’t like the fediverse and Lemmy for a bunch of technical reasons and who is certain that they can achieve better some how?

The relevance of this is that I honestly think the fediverse is somewhat plagued by the aggregate effect of the mentality of indy tech people to prefer to do their own thing and to find others’ work and cooperating with it/them insurmountable distasteful. Basically mass NIH.

Which is not problem on its own. Tech people do great things and being motivated to do what they want is pretty fundamental. Hell this is probably half of what’s going on with Lemmy’s development.

But beehaw’s goals are not technical, arguably not at all even to the point of being in spite of technical factors as a “safe space online for the disenfranchised” has intrinsic tension I’d say. And it seems that you’re very reliant on the technical heroes that have kept your instance healthy.

Which means their own technical tastes and motivations might hold too much sway and their promises might be too convincing.

I’m not sure this will help your reasoning, but I figured there was small chance that bringing this might help. The reality may be that the essence of the beehaw project requires fighting the nature of technology.

I like the policy of "Be Nice" even when I get annoyed that I can't down vote. Tho a ultimatum like this would make me switch to another server. Why? Well first of all Lemmy is supposed to be federated imagine if Google did this with gmail, it would not end well. Secondly even if I like content from Beehaw communities I do enjoy and contribute to other instances, and would not follow BeeHaw if it where to defederate. The reason I chose and have stayed on BeeHaw is that ultimately it was my choice to use this instance and follow the rules, defederation would not allow me the freedom to be anywhere but on BeeHaw, and that sounds like the walled garden that I left behind. And those platforms end up hurting people allot. I would hate for BeeHaw to end up like it, and would way less be there to see it happen.

TLDR: I want the freedom to chose the rules I want to abide by and would not support this. And would migrate to another instance if this where to go forward.

Personally I'd be sad to see Beehaw go. I enjoy several of your communities and I think the wider fediverse would be poorer for it. But you need to do what's best for you. Best wishes to you no matter what you decide ☮️💙🙂

I had assumed beehaw had already defeded. Since I've been using lemmy, there has never not been some discussion about beehaw and their federation/defederation choices and discussing the intricacies of those decisions. For whatever reason, I haven't really seen anything from or about beehaw since joining this instance so I presumed they defeded. Prior to that, it seemed hit or miss whether or not I'd get the privilege of seeing beehaw.

All that is to say, with the way you've handled moderation, if you left the fediverse it would probably just make everyone's lives simpler. It's going to be a "shit or get off the pot" from me, dawg.

I recall beehaw having some good communities when I was first on Lemmy this summer, but I haven’t seen much from there on Kbin or the lemmies I use - presumably because beehaw defederated for whatever reason. If you’re not going to be connected to the largest instances anyway, what’s the difference?

Sure, having a standalone forum is a legitimate thing to do, like it always has been since the start of the internet. Seems like it would be harder to grow the site without the network effect of the rest of Lemmy though.

Personally I think it would be unfortunate. I like some of the communities on beehaw I'm subscribed to, but I'm not sure I'd bother to switch over. Even right now, many posts I see don't get any interactions, others just a few and that's with users from other instances. I'd imagine starting over would kill many of these communities off almost entirely.

Most of the topics in interested in have moved off of Beehaw and communities have grown elsewhere. I probably wouldn't even notice if Beehaw left.

I say do what's best for you and fuck what everyone else thinks.

I joined because its federated and the people who run it. If beehaw defederates ill go somewhere else, albeit sadly.

Raddle.me is a good example. Because its not federated i just never go despite it being a fine community. Its not big enough to be its own thing worth visiting outside of it being federated content.

Can someone explain all the hate against Beehaw to me? I run a private instance, so I don't really keep up with Lemmy politics

I guess there is no need for further commentary on why the strict moderation of a "safe space"/walled garden cannot keep up with the growth of such an open space as activitypub.

So in response to the title, I would think this is fantastic news! You say your principle is "be nice", which I think is great and I wish it was the general norm, but from what I've seen and heard it would be more like "you better think like us, because we aggressively enforce political correctness and ideological censorship". It would be a pity to lose its users, but I simply hate to end up on beehaw by mistake and would be happier to see it disappear.

The fuck are you asking non bee haw users for?

Lol, so good I left Beehaw already. Do whatever you want now, not going to miss it, neither their admins.

I hope you decide to stick around ❤️

I joined beehaw during the rexodus because it seemed like a good community and a good part of the fediverse. I started contributing monthly to keep the instance going.

I tend to browse All more than Local. If beehaw does defederate, I would likely find a new instance and contribute there instead. I don't mean this to sound threatening, but I'm not going to give money to something I don't use.

Do you have a plan for recruiting new users? Lemmy already struggles there and it's one of the bigger platforms. If we move even further from the mainstream, I'm afraid we'd slowly wither away as people leave and aren't replaced.

You’re doing Truth social but with nice people. Very few people want to hang out in an echo chamber.

The foundation of your instance is a handful of sand, so I don’t think it matters if you stay or go.

It would be sad. There’s great communities and members in beehaw and they make great contributions to the fediverse. What would be the reason to leave? What goals does beehaw have that are limited by Lemmy?

Sad, but your choice will be completely understandable, I wish #beehaw success anyways, I had mostly positive experience with it users.

I am a kbin user and I like to see the opinions expressed by beehaw users.

I would consider the users of Lemmy disenfranchised, whether they were the OGs or the refugees who did not want to be part of a corporate structure that is Reddit.

As for your goal of being nice, you can be a private instance with a very detail form with long list of questions that applies to your values. This will cut down new users joining and only those that are willing to go through the process of joining will show the commitment.

Having said that, having a closed door policy on the fediverse defeats the purpose of being on fediverse. If you truly only want, how you define disenfranchised, then fediverse may not be the right platform and you will always be left wondering.

I would be bummed. I go on the tech and science communities pretty often.

I suggest you ask on a different less drama-y instance, in addition to this post.