Spoken like a true Arch Linux user
this post was submitted on 01 Aug 2023
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I don't use arch
I also assumed you were a fellow Arch user.
I use Arch btw.
I say that very tongue-in-cheek, but it definitely gave a vibe haha
What would be the relation? From my understanding, the stereotype is about arch users telling everyone that they use arch btw, or telling people to rtfm. Maybe there's another stereotype I am missing, but I haven't done either of those here. 😅
Some distros build their entire system as modules declaratively. NixOS and GUIX.
What has that to do with OPs consideration??
Not GP, but NixOS makes it easy to make new distros from a NixOS configuration, with ISOs and everything. See for example SnowflakeOS. This is IMO healthier than all the Arch clones etc., since all differences from the base OS are easy to spot, there is little duplication of effort, and it possible to revert to a base NixOS from e.g. SnowflakeOS if a user so would desire.
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I think your focus is on ease for distributors rather than ease for users. Unless they had a series of checkboxes to choose your flavour, most won't like it and it won't gain traction.
It's a bit like "why cannot people cook food in a restaurant to their liking rather than a chef doing all these meals and variations?". People just wanna eat.
If you're basing your distro on another distro, you'll need to modify your dependencies to fit the existing packages anyway. It seems like the only difference is which repo the additional packages are being fetched from.
I don't see how this is more difficult on the user. It is running a simple command, and for a GUI package manager it would be a single button click, just like you'd do it in a graphical installer. It would indeed be almost like a series of check boxes.
As a user, it is much easier to check a box than reinstall my entire OS
I do agree with you that it's a cool option. It would require a distro to prioritise that and architect that in a way that seamlessly switches. Maybe there is a gap for something like that if the UI is nice.
Actually, on reflection, I think Mint did have an option from login screen to use KDE or Cinnamon.
It wouldn't require from the distro any more work than they do on their current package repository. A DE and it'd configuration could be debian packages just like any other.
I don't think they'd be so popular if they weren't useful.
Why should the user be required to reinstall their whole OS? I don't think they are: it seems relatively straightforward to change DEs on Ubuntu at least.
On the other hand, if someone knows they want Ubuntu with KDE, why should they have to go through a regular Ubuntu install just to do the post configuration themselves? Plus, maintainers of these offshoot distros can potentially more deeply remove dependency on the default DE.
I think focusing on differences in system software is less illustrative than looking at the out-of-the-box user experience and capabilities. A changed DE is a pretty huge practical difference.
This line of thought does really underscore how nebulous the definition of an operating system really is. Pour one out for GNU being totally subsumed culturally by a Kernel that everyone sees as an OS.
They are of course very useful, please do not misunderstand my post. None of what I said downplays the usefulness of these efforts. I am merely suggesting that the method in which they distribute them is not efficient. Maintaining a whole different Linux distribution just to distribute a different DE configuration is overkill. It is much easier to maintain a package instead.
From the user's perspective, installing Ubuntu and doing "sudo apt install [pre-configured KDE package to your liking]" is effortless and virtually indistinguishable from just installign Kubuntu. You get the full support from Ubuntu, whereas a different distribution may not. You are not needlessly breaking away from Ubuntu.
Honestly, it could even be an install option, like Fedora and EndeavourOS do. Do you miss out on anything doing this vs an entire different distro? I dont think so.
Again, a changed DE is pretty drastic, but it does not warrant a different installation process of the whole OS or system. You should only need to take out the parts you need to, and from a user's perspective, it should be possible to make it as simple as running a command or making a choice.
Now that you mention Fedora, the Fedora Server ISO does this incredibly well. You pick your spin, (Workstation, Server, KDE, Sway, etc.) and You pick an extra set of packages if you want. It's the same installer as the desktop (the Anaconda installer), and it works great.
It doesn't warrant it to your taste, but people like it. I don't get your point beyond saying that people shouldn't prefer it because you don't.
So they're "very useful", but shouldn't exist?
I get that it would be nice if Ubuntu etc had installation options for DEs, but they don't. That would take time and effort the maintainers could use on other priorities. So, other interested people fill the gap with offshoot distros.
Never said that they shouldn't exist. I only said that they must be distributed as packages instead.
I think we're mostly on the same page, but verbiage like "must be distributed as packages instead" is pretty hard to interpret any other way than saying DE-distros shouldn't exist.
Name a single popular distro that follows op's description that isn't a novelty/fad.
Kubuntu
kubuntu is already literally just a package.
if you just install kubuntu-desktop (or something similar) from any buntu flavor you get it.
And that's exactly my point. You get the same experience by just installing a package rather than having to "distro-hop"
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But if you start with Kubuntu then it's not exactly hopping, it's just more convenient.
If people wanted to do it by package installation, they would!
In the end it's just more user choice, which is good.
Sure, you're right! But here's a proposition: it would be easier on both the developer and the user (without sacrificing user choice) if it was a package, or better yet, an option to check on the installer. It is still just the same amount of choice.
If people wanted to do it by package installation, they would!
In the current state, they usually can't. Maintainers do not provide these as packages, so you're forced to install a whole distribution just to try out their configuration of KDE
I'm with you that it would be awesome to have more options to explore big changes like that.
I just don't see maintainers putting the effort into it. I don't think these DE-only distros are going anywhere anytime soon, and I'm glad they're filling a gap for the users that want it.
I disagree. On one laptop I had Ubuntu, and then installed kubuntu-desktop. It became a bit of a mess with the login screen, and it isn't that easy to uninstall the previous Gnome stuff – had to leave it there. On another laptop I installed Kubuntu directly, and the problems above don't appear.
I just call them "flavours" or theme distros
A "theme" with the ability to replace key packages with compromised versions!
I think it's about controlling others. Not in an evil or conniving way, but rather that a lot of devs "don't want other people forcing design decisions on them" when in reality they're just replacing one set of design decisions with another.
There used to be a distribution called Symphony OS. It was a unique desktop paradigm (not my favorite mid '90s buzzword, but I think it fits) that I was interested in trying out. It's long gone by this point, but it would have been nice to be able to just install the DM like Gnome, KDE, or whatever without having to do a full install.