this post was submitted on 30 Jul 2023

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Is there anything that can be done about troll powermods? (media.kbin.social)

submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by EnglishMobster@kbin.social to c/kbinMeta@kbin.social

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I logged into Kbin today to see 18 notifications where the same guy banned me from all of their magazines for downvoting them.

I was only subscribed to 1 of those magazines, but it's still annoying to wake up to 18 ban messages from someone who got easily angered from a downvote.

(Side note: IMO, this is why being able to see downvotes is bad. Even if anyone could see them by spinning up their own instance, that's a lot of work compared to pressing 2 buttons.)

I've blocked the guy, but is there anything that can be done to stop this from proliferating across the site?

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[–] euphoria@kbin.social 78 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

this is certainly very very worrying. this sort of behavior has to be handled some way or another. @ernest.

honestly, someone like that has already shown they would not make a good moderator, they mass banned over something so petty and small, i don't think it would be unreasonable to revoke their ability to make mags for some time (or indefinitely) and give his mags to someone else who is more mature. he already swiped up some big name mags, do we really want someone like that running popular magazines? no.

edit. honestly fuck it, this deserves to be called out. @Deliverator, this is unacceptable and very childish behavior. you should not be running magazines. reconsider your behavior and grow up, please.

edit. looks like we may not have the full story here. @Deliverator, we would very much like to hear your side and your reasoning for this.

edit. i noticed some people have gone and mass-downvoted Deliverators posts, PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS. do NOT stoop to that level, do NOT contribute to the problem of mass-downvoting, even if the other person has done it, or you are no better and have no right to criticize it.

[–] Chozo@kbin.social 31 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

Looks like he may have just been removed from his mod position on a few magazines, as his profile only shows him modding 14 now. Hopefully the other magazines he's on realize what he's doing and do something about him.

EDIT: Maybe not, I just checked the modlog, and OP was only banned 13 times, not 18. Unless 5 of those were removed and no longer show up in the log for some reason? I feel like there might be more to this story than what we're seeing.

Other people have also been downvoting the mod in question, but OP is the only one who seems to have been mass-banned like this, as far as I can see in the modlog. I don't even see any threads where OP or the mod have interacted before, so I'm doubting that this was caused by just downvoting somebody's comment.

Maybe everyone should pump the brakes on this witch hunt for a sec.

[–] euphoria@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

we definitely need his side of the story now, hope he comes out with it soon

[–] McBinary@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I don't think there can possibly be a justifiable reason he was banned from every one of that mod's magazines, and then for the mod to systematically put a downvote on every single one of the user's posts. Clearly they both did it, but still, not moderator worthy behavior.

[–] euphoria@kbin.social 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

at this point, i have no idea what happened, but am open to hearing the full story. i'd like to assume there isn't a justifiable reason for it, but we honestly shouldn't assume anything till we see both sides. like someone else said, OP has also downvoted all their comments/posts, it could have been in response to it, or maybe not. we need the full story here

[–] NightAuthor 8 points 1 year ago

Nah fam, it’s the inter webs, we hunt witches and burn them. And this guy definitely floats in water.

[–] EnglishMobster@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The 18 number is the number of unread messages I had at the time. They were all "you have been banned." I just went back and counted; I have 18 messages (across 2 pages of notifications now).

It's possible that they extended the length of the ban and doing so gave me another message; the bans were all different lengths. Or it could be some duplication happening server-side.

[–] Gork@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

If it's any consolation, you'll be unbanned from one of them in 2095, and should be unbanned from the rest by 2105.

[–] McBinary@kbin.social 21 points 1 year ago (3 children)

There definitely needs to be a set protocol to remove mods like this. If the user did something to be removed from a specific mag, that's one thing, but removing them from every mag you're a mod for is an overreach.

[–] TheEntity@kbin.social 18 points 1 year ago

In theory the protocol is to first report it to the instance admin and otherwise avoid instances that allow such behavior. I'm aware it's easier said than done.

[–] lukini 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Obviously I come from a different instance, but I feel there are things that should result in mass bans and even account deletion, such as the use of racial slurs. Contact the admins and make it happen in those cases.

[–] RossoErcole@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago (13 children)

I don't agree, people can make mistakes, they are punished according to that mistake, and should be given the chance to be better. If someone is banned all across the platform there is no redeeming opportunity.

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[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

The only "set protocol" is that the protocol is up to the instance admin to set.

That said, it would be nice to have a standard place for instance admins to post that protocol so that everyone can see it and decide if the instance meets their standards.

[–] GunnarRunnar@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

i noticed some people have gone and mass-downvoted Deliverators posts, PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS

Not to be a i-told-you-so but this is why you don't name and shame on the internet. You can influence a person but masses become this uncontrollable horde that does stuff like this.

[–] fiat_lux@kbin.social 69 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

I actually disagree with this being an example of why seeing downvotes is bad. I also think it's good we can see which mod is doing the banning; I've noticed the standard lemmy moderation log doesn't show that. This kind of transparency allows for poor behaviour to be discovered more quickly and remedied with less speculation about who did what.

Edit: For example, I can also see this person has gone through your entire comment history and downvoted every comment. I didn't see any troll-like comments from you though. I hope this person is doing OK mentally, but this isn't OK community leader behaviour on their part.

Edit 2: I can also see that OP has downvoted every single one of the other person's comments too. On the same day as the other person did to OP. Uh... I don't know what conversation spawned this entire exchange, but I dont think that downvoting all someone's comments outside of their contexts is productive.

Edit 3: And for the couple of other accounts who are going through the post histories of the people involved and downvoting because of this thread? Also not helpful behaviour. Be better.

This is why we can't have nice things.

[–] TheDeadGuy@kbin.social 32 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This is exactly why transparency is great. These people are ridiculous and lose credibility. Keeping everything visible is the best defense against manipulation

[–] Kara@kbin.social 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Agreed, if somebody is spam downvoting comments (Which is honestly quite the pathetic act), then people should be able to see that, and block/report them

[–] stopthatgirl7@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Unfortunately, blocking doesn’t actually do anything aside from stopping up from seeing their comments. Someone I blocked is still able to see, reply to, and downvote my posts. It’s frustrating, to say the least.

[–] EnglishMobster@kbin.social 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Additionally - and I don't know if this has been fixed - if you're a mod and you block someone, you also don't see posts they make on your magazines.

So they can easily go in and make spam posts and you - as a mod - would never see it.

[–] stopthatgirl7@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago

Which is the exact opposite of how it’s supposed to work. Blocks are seriously broken right now.

[–] fiat_lux@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago

On the other hand, if one of the actual spammers were to just block downvoters and their downvotes, this would allow them to more easily evade detection as bad faith content creators. It's hard to say how that should be remedied beyond more moderation, which would require more unpaid mod labour and time. And relies on moderators always making fair and sensible decisions.

People and communities are tricky. Why do we all got to be so damn tricky?

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[–] ImaginaryFox@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago

Yeah, and being able to see who downvotes you will hopefully lead to people being encouraged to actually leave a comment if they disagree instead of just downvoting everything they disagree with they see. People still are not aware that downvoting is public, so still fall into old habits of using downvote as a I disagree or I don't like you option.

[–] EnglishMobster@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

I avoided some of the finer details because the downvoting isn't the point - the bans are. Especially from so many magazines.

But - to give the full story:

I have a Tampermonkey extension which hides posts after an upvote/downvote. Because of this, I'm voting on basically everything in my subscribed feed.

I downvoted something of his - I don't even remember what, exactly. I made some comments and noticed when checking replies later that I had been downvoted on a bunch of them.

Curious, I checked to see where the downvotes were coming from - all of them were this guy. I checked their profile and saw that I had already downvoted one of their posts, hence my guess as to why he was mad.

Usually I'd let these things pass, but I found it a bit childish and I was feeling petty, so I did it back to them. You can judge me if you like; I'm not exactly proud of stooping to that level but I was already in a sour mood that day.

I haven't been on Kbin for a couple days, but I checked back this afternoon and saw 18 messages, all of which said "you have been banned." Evidently they got angry and decided they weren't going to let me participate in any of their communities.

I got pissed at this and banned him back - which is, again, perhaps childish on my part. At the same time, I've been a mod for a long time across multiple platforms, and I have a low tolerance for BS at this point. I've seen folks like this start spamming communities in retaliation to perceived slights - something like that happened on the first forum I ever ran, way back before Reddit even existed - and frankly this guy has already proven to be acting in bad faith.

One reason why I didn't delve into details is because this is going to devolve into petty he said/she said arguments, which frankly isn't the point.

The point is that this guy got pissed off at something I did and decided I wasn't able to participate in any of their communities anymore. Like I said, I was only subscribed to one of these communities anyway - so it didn't really affect me - but I worry what would happen if these weren't small communities. What happens if a powermod that runs multiple big magazines decides to ban people for perceived slights?

I know this was a issue on Reddit (awkwardtheturtle), and I'd hate for it to be an issue here, too.

[–] fiat_lux@kbin.social 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The downvoting isn't the point

It actually seems to be central to the point. If I take your account as the truth, it appears that by using the dislike functionality to leverage your personal UI extension side effects, you have actually had the effect of delegitimising this person's contribution. Because downvotes on kbin also affect everyone's content sorting.

This person may have felt harassed by those actions, even if it wasn't your intent. While you have asked for us to excuse your actions as childish retaliation and an attempt to defend your communities from bad actors, you have also cast the exact same actions from the other person as being "troll powermod".

That seems problematic. If i were in your position, I would look at modifying the tampermonkey extension to provide a hide function which only affects your client. And also retracting downvotes which it created, as a show of goodwill. I hope you can both get past whatever it is that happened here.

Downvotes not having reasons attached allows for a lot of room for misinterpretation and uniformed assumptions. Instead of hiding the downvotes, perhaps we could all just be more mindful of how we use them.

I hope you all have a better time from here on out.

[–] JokeDeity@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The shit stirring dickhead inside of me really just wants to downvote you for no reason now.

[–] fiat_lux@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago

Have at it, friend. We all let the intrusive voices win sometimes. 😉

[–] BarbecueCowboy@kbin.social 12 points 1 year ago

I have a Tampermonkey extension which hides posts after an upvote/downvote. Because of this, I'm voting on basically everything in my subscribed feed.

I do want to call out some concerns here. I'm not excusing op's behavior, but indiscriminate downvotes is the kind of thing I'd say we don't want here and I'd say you're both in the wrong even if one of you is farther down the path.

[–] stevecrox@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The script is causing poor behaviour by subverting the purpose of the up/down vote system.

The downvote button should be used to indicate a post doesn't add to the conversation. It isn't a dislike/disagree button, your supposed to comment in those situations.

I try to put effort into my comments, when they get randomly downvoted for no reason it can be upsetting.

Obviously you upset the mod and they overreacted, but your behaviour triggered the event.

[–] aroom@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

yes. systematic downvoting is a good reason for a ban.

the script excuse is not great, because OP knew they were downvoting content.

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[–] ernest@kbin.social 35 points 1 year ago

@EnglishMobster This week, I will take a closer look at the topic, and additional options for the blocklist may be required. To be honest, I cannot guarantee that it will happen right away, but the improvements will definitely be gradually introduced. The priority, however, remains the stable functioning of the website and data security due to the significant changes prepared by contributors. I don't want to do anything faster than necessary, but I realize how important what you're writing about is.

[–] Gordon_Freeman@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago (4 children)

wait, can you see who downvotes you?

[–] Voyajer@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Yup, I've already caught someone who went through and downvoted a lot of my comments within the span of a minute because of it.

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[–] comedy@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Yes, if you click on "more," next to "reply" and "boost." Click on "activity" from there.

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[–] GeekFTW@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

Click more on any thread or comment and click activity. "Reduces" are down votes.

[–] metaStatic@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Gave you one to check

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[–] Blakerboy777@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago

@EnglishMobster every day on there's a main character on the internet, and you never want to be it. @Deliverator, how about instead of this getting totally blown out of proportion, you ease up and unban the guy, as well as make it a personal policy not to ban people from every magazine you own over a petty grievance. Going nuclear like that should be reserved for something extreme like CSAM, not just doing something that irritates you.

[–] Madison_rogue@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

He went as far as downvoting all your comments and posts. That's some Kindergarten level pettiness. Yeah, based on that they shouldn't be a mod.

[–] AnonTwo@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

To be fair, wouldn't an admin always be able to see your downvotes, even without the current completely open view of it? Admins in general usually get information you're not privy to on sites.

That said, your best bet would be to just find magazines that offer the same thing, just not run by him. Or make a new one. If he keeps it up you'd likely get traffic.

[–] Chozo@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

This wasn't an admin, just a mod.

[–] brothershamus@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

Well if someone made a magazine that's absolutely unique in history and cannot be duplicated then yeah that might be a concern. But, honestly why not make a rival mag or find a simliar one to migrate to? There's plenty of magazines in the sea. If this guy has 18 that are squarely in your wheelhouse and there are no other options, you could make 18 new ones or boogie on over to the next instance.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be fussy about admins being adults and acting fairly. Just that we're still early in the ballgame here and the whole thing of four-mods-owning-800-subreddit things or whatever really shoudln't happen here for any good reason.

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