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[–] SPOOSER@lemmy.today 31 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (5 children)

I think the fundamental issue with this is that it presumes that our understanding of morality is perfect. If an all-knowing, all-powerful God acted contrary to our understanding of morality, or allowed something to happen contrary to our understanding of morality it would make sense for us to perceive that as undermining our understanding of God, making him imperfect. An all-knowing, all-encomposing God may have an understanding that we as mortals are incapable of understanding or perceiving.

It presumes to know a perfect morality while also arguing that morality can be subjective. It doesn't make sense, just like an irrational belief in a God. I think the best way to go about this is to allow people to believe how they want and stop trying to convince people one way another about their beliefs. People get to believe differently and that is not wrong.

Edit: holy shit those reddit comments are full of /r/iamverysmart material lmfao

[–] jjjalljs@ttrpg.network 11 points 2 months ago (1 children)

An all-knowing, all-encomposing God may have an understanding that we as mortals are incapable of understanding or perceiving.

That being could make us understand.

[–] SPOOSER@lemmy.today 3 points 2 months ago

Sure, but the concept itself is that whatever entity it is knows better, so the fact you don't undetstand has a purpose in the entity's "grand scheme".

What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter because as humans we're all just trying to make sense of ourselves and our place in the universe. The fact we exist is perplexing, and however we decide to deal with that fact is up to each individual, and that's ok.

[–] Mrs_deWinter@feddit.org 11 points 2 months ago (1 children)

If you skip the "evil" part and just start talking about "things that are bad for us humans" it's still true though. Sure, maybe child cancer is somehow moral or good from the perspective of an immortal entity, but in this case this entity is obviously operating on a basis that is completely detached from what's meaningful to us. Our lives, our suffering, our hardship - obviously none of all this is relevant enough to a potential god to do anything about it. Or he would, but can't. Hence the Epicurean paradox.

One answer I've heard from religious people is that life after death will make up for it all. But that doesn't make sense either. If heaven/paradise/whatever puts life into such small perspective that our suffering doesn't matter, then our lives truly don't mean anything. It's just a feelgood way of saying god couldn't care less about child cancer - because in the grand scheme of things it's irrelevant anyway.

To us humans, our lives aren't meaningless. Child cancer isn't irrelevant. We care about what's happening in this life and to the people we care about. How could a god be of any relevance to us if our understanding of importance, of value, of good and bad, is so meaningless to them? Why would we ever construct and celebrate organized religion around something so detached from ourselves? The answer is: We wouldn't.

Either god is relevant to our lives or he isn't. Reality tells us: He isn't. Prayers don't work, hardship isn't helped, suffering isn't stopped. Thought through to it's inevitable conclusion the Epicurean paradox is logical proof that god as humans used to think about him doesn't exist, and if something of the sorts exists, it's entirely irrelevant to us.

[–] SPOOSER@lemmy.today 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

You may be right.

If a god does exist, then bad things are part of its higher morality, or evil design. If a god doesn't exist, then who cares? Why waste so much energy disproving its existence? Just ignore the crazy religious people, and try and help make the world better. Those people may waste time praying, or not doing anything to help suffering and then act high and mighty, but that will NEVER stop. Religion has and always will exist. It's a way for people to cope with their insignificance, cope with unfairness, and grapple with the concept of death and accepting its inevitablity. If you want to feel and be better than them by actually helping humanity go for it. But at the end of the day people can believe what they will and that's ok. But whether or not there is a god, despising or looking down on people for believing is just as productive as you believe praying is.

[–] Zacryon@feddit.org 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Why waste so much energy disproving its existence?

I hope it doesn't annoy you, as I said in it other subcomment trees already, but I feel the need to say it for potential other readers:
Because organised religion has caused and does still cause a tremendous amount of suffering.

Just ignore the crazy religious people

That is easier said than done if the crazy religious, spiritual, superstituous people don't ignore you and murder you for supposedly being a witch. Sounds medieval, but it isn't. https://www.dw.com/en/witch-hunts-a-global-problem-in-the-21st-century/a-54495289 Or if you are being beaten and killed for being homosexual. https://www.dw.com/en/iran-defends-execution-of-gay-people/a-49144899 Or if you are being "honour killed" because you didn't want to live in a forced marriage and wear a head scarf. https://www.dw.com/en/honor-killings-in-germany-when-families-turn-executioners/a-42511928

Long story short: too many religious people suck a lot. Worsened by their need to expand their religion by proselytizing the naive and thereby nurturing more maniacs.

Why waste so much energy disproving its existence?

To mitigate suffering and save lives in the long run.

Religion has and always will exist.

Probably true but changeable by peacefully reducing member counts of religions.

It’s a way for people to cope with their insignificance, cope with unfairness, and grapple with the concept of death and accepting its inevitablity

Which shows the need for further societal support solutions on a larger scale which do not need religion to function. Think of better education, better access to medical and psychological help as a start.

[–] kent_eh@lemmy.ca 6 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I think the fundamental issue with this is that it presumes that our understanding of morality is perfect.

By that measure, all religions have the fundamental issue of presuming that they have any actual knowledge or understanding of their god(s).

[–] bitfucker@programming.dev 2 points 2 months ago (4 children)

But not all religions claim to have perfect knowledge of their god? Some acknowledge that god is greater and beyond our understanding

[–] kent_eh@lemmy.ca 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Conveniently, they claim to know what their god wants when they're telling you want to do, but also claim not to understand their gods ways when challenged on parts of their faith.

[–] bitfucker@programming.dev 1 points 2 months ago

I mean yeah, that is the point. A higher being told you to do X, you understood X exactly as it is a concept that you already have built upon in the course of your life. But you still cannot comprehend the higher being itself.

Take a simple thought experiment from flatland. If a spherical (3D) being were to appear on an otherwise 2D (flatland) world and say "Do not go to your house tonight". The flatlander can understand the meaning of what the sphere said, but cannot comprehend the sphere itself in its entirety. No matter how the sphere explains himself to the flatlander, the flatlander may not have the correct picture of the sphere.

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[–] humbletightband@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Double this.

Basically God's evil != Human's evil

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[–] sexual_tomato@lemmy.dbzer0.com 18 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Fun fact, if you arrive at this conclusion as an 8 year old in Sunday school at your ultra fundamentalist Baptist Church and proceed to tell the teacher, you get yelled at and spanked by the teacher and your parents! Ask me how I know.

[–] Zacryon@feddit.org 3 points 2 months ago

How do you know?

[–] Shawdow194@kbin.run 9 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Seem confusing?

That's right - because anything that's made up and subject to interpretation IS!

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[–] HelixDab2@lemm.ee 9 points 2 months ago (2 children)

This presupposes that "evil" exists as a universal concept that a god is bound, versus a god that exists outside of concepts of morality.

[–] Zacryon@feddit.org 3 points 2 months ago

In Christianity there are several explicit or implicit definitions of good and evil and how their God judges them based on that. Therefore, concepts of morality exist in that context.

[–] falcunculus@jlai.lu 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

The god that gave His faithful the ten commandments and has His church promise heaven or hell depending on behavior exists outside of morality ? He literally defines it.

[–] HelixDab2@lemm.ee 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

He/it creates and defines concepts of morality, but may not be a part of that system, or bound by those definitions. If we're imagining a being of some kind that is (nominally) omnipotent and omnipresent, the I don't see how we could realistically apply morality based on a mortal existence to it. How could you apply, for instance, a rule that says "don't murder" to a thing that is incapable of death in any way that we would understand it?

I'm absolutely not a theist, but I think that exercises like this are ultimately futile. When I was a believer, this kind of mental exercise wouldn't have made much of a dent in my belief. The nature of evil has been a study point for religious scholars for >2000 years, and mostly people ahve shrugged and said that they don't understand, but they have faith, and that's good enough. OTOH, I'm a sample size of one, so maybe there are people that would see this argument and question how rational their belief was.

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[–] Vilian@lemmy.ca 7 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Just being the devil advocate here: I disagree with the "destroy Satan" part, Satan isn't the definition of evil, he is only the HR department that deal with the evil people, and the part of God not stopping evil, maybe he don't because it go against free will? About the not loving, he promises a perfect infinity world after all of this, after a few centuries of perfection you don't care/remember I guess

[–] ICastFist@programming.dev 5 points 2 months ago (8 children)

Good advocate. Anyway, "God not stopping evil, maybe he don’t because it go against free will" - That enters the loop at the bottom. Could God create a universe where free will exists, but evil does not exist? If yes, then why didn't He? If He could not create such a universe, then he's not all powerful and/or not all loving and good.

"About the not loving, he promises a perfect infinity world after all of this" - Then why do we have to go through this initial, temporary and imperfect part?

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[–] cRazi_man@lemm.ee 3 points 2 months ago

Literally advocating for the devil.

[–] red_pigeon@lemm.ee 7 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (3 children)

One of the funniest things humanity has done is to invent the concept of God as a super entity and then reduce him/them/it to their level.

Why would a super entity be bound by "love" which only humans understand ? Why would "it" have the concept of "evil", something that humans invented out of fear.

As a species we just need to accept we are just stupid.

[–] Mrs_deWinter@feddit.org 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Why would a super entity be bound by "love" which only humans understand ? Why would "it" have the concept of "evil", something that humans invented out of fear.

It doesn't. That's the point. The Epicurean paradox doesn't say god doesn't exist in some way or form, but the idea of god as someone with a relationship to humanity based on love, omnipotence and omniscience (in any way that's meaningful to us) is apparently false.

Or from your perspective: God loves us in his way; he doesn't love us in our way, which means we can't expect the same mercy, the same support, the same commitment from him as we humans are capable of.

Epicurus refuted one very specific idea of god, which was prevalent at one point in time, but is today only believed by very devout evangelicals. What we today conclude from the fact that apparently no god will alleviate the suffering in this life is up to each individual.

[–] shy_mia@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

And that is why religion is effectively meaningless. We have invented a being full of contradictions, much like ourselves, but declared [it|whatever] perfect besides that. The answer to the paradox is that there is no God.

People should learn to strive for good without the threat of eternal punishment from a being of their invention, otherwise those individuals were never good to begin with, and their imaginary all powerful, all knowing and judgemental god would punish them regardless.

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[–] match@pawb.social 6 points 2 months ago (1 children)
[–] meep_launcher@lemm.ee 4 points 2 months ago

Honestly that's probably the only way out of the problem of evil.

That said you are on a path of ethical relativism, and from a practical standpoint it's fucked up beyond belief.

Also so much of religion is founded on the good/ evil dynamic that if this was removed, everything else would crumble.

[–] Thorny_Insight@lemm.ee 4 points 2 months ago (2 children)

What if I disagree with the premise?

[–] Mrs_deWinter@feddit.org 3 points 2 months ago (12 children)

Replace with "bad stuff happens".

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[–] Brickardo@feddit.nl 4 points 2 months ago

Are you 16 and this is deep?

[–] rand_alpha19@moist.catsweat.com 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Maybe Satan is also all-powerful, and each time they fight it's a coin toss. Unstoppable force meets unmovable object.

Assuming that Christianity is even slightly based in fact and that entities like God and Satan actually exist.

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[–] PyroNeurosis@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I have never before encountered an "aC" dating system. A quick google shows the dates to line up with BC, but it's still new.

[–] tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip 3 points 2 months ago

heh, it's the ante christ

[–] Socket462@feddit.it 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (3 children)

What if an almighty God created the universe without evil, but with free-will, and then one angel decided to challange the way God rules, so that God has to let him rules to show everyone whose way of rule is the best?

Simply killing that angel would not answer the challenge, on the contrary, killing that angel would demonstrate that God is a dictator.

Pasted from a reply to another user.

[–] within_epsilon 7 points 2 months ago (1 children)

God is already a dictator by choosing the state of everything. Designing a chaotic system and letting it run also supports being a dictator. He designed the system. An omnipotent God is unable to escape His own designs. The rebellious angel was by design. His planning thereby is guile.

[–] Socket462@feddit.it 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

If the rebellious angel was evil by design, then there is no free-will.

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[–] Zacryon@feddit.org 7 points 2 months ago

God created angels. If God created an angel which challenges them and is "evil" (saying that about some angel dude who isn't a mass murderer like their creator according to bible records https://www.wired.com/2007/04/old-testament-m/ https://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html ) then we arrive again at the Epicurean paradox.

[–] Mrs_deWinter@feddit.org 2 points 2 months ago

Still wouldn't answer why god doesn't interfer with evil. Why doesn't he help us against this angel? Heals sicknesses? Stops wars? Saves victims of murder and rape?

[–] pseudo@jlai.lu 3 points 2 months ago

There is a few problems with this diagram:

  1. Why should God want only the good? What is the paradox of God wanted to do whatever it want with its creation? The all-powerful, all-knowing God would have create Satan and wanted that he did all bad things he did.
  2. Why should the test be to let God know about us? It could be about letting us know about ourself.

Also the branch that are not yes/no does not cover all possibility. Therefore, this is not a paradox but rather an incomplet thought. I know that much from UML.

I don't know much about history but didn't Epicure lived at a time where people believe their was multiple gods? Why is it not mentioned in the scheme? Did he believe that there was only one god?

[–] SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

We know paradoxes exist in the real world. Therefore proving that the existence of God is paradoxical does not prove that God doesn't exist. It simply proves that God is paradoxical. Which most people knew already.

[–] Mrs_deWinter@feddit.org 12 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Paradoxes don't "exist" in the real world. Reality isn't paradoxical. Paradoxes are what we call problems we haven't found answers for yet. They point to unsolved questions, false correlations, and wrong premises - precisely because nothing in the real world can actually be paradoxical.

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[–] halvar@lemm.ee 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I once heard omnipotent doesn't mean they can overturn logic itself, which seems a little unintuitve to me, but hey why not.

[–] Natanael@slrpnk.net 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Being unbound by logic / information theory would make it impossible to reason about anything at all

[–] Zacryon@feddit.org 2 points 2 months ago

Thereby implying that everything becomes meaningless and there is no point in believing anything.

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