this post was submitted on 16 May 2024
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[–] GlassHalfHopeful@lemmy.ca 90 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

“People think that when you’re mentally ill, you can’t think straight, which is insulting,” she told the Guardian. “I understand the fears that some disabled people have about assisted dying, and worries about people being under pressure to die... But in the Netherlands, we’ve had this law for more than 20 years. There are really strict rules, and it’s really safe.”

She embarked on intensive treatments, including talking therapies, medication and more than 30 sessions of electroconvulsive therapy (ECT). “In therapy, I learned a lot about myself and coping mechanisms, but it didn’t fix the main issues. At the beginning of treatment, you start out hopeful. I thought I’d get better. But the longer the treatment goes on, you start losing hope.”

After 10 years, there was “nothing left” in terms of treatment. "I’ve never hesitated about my decision. I have felt guilt – I have a partner, family, friends and I’m not blind to their pain. And I’ve felt scared. But I’m absolutely determined to go through with it.

Honestly and genuinely, I'm glad to see all that she has put into this decision and glad the state is allowing it. Now she doesn't need to cause further pain to others through a traumatic suicide and she can gain the peace she's been longing for.

Each day, so many lives are snuffed out of existence without a second thought. She has given this an incredible amount of thought, time, and work.

Rest in peace, Zoraya. 💜

P. S. There's thousands of live today that want to live. They don't want to die. And yet their lives are taken away in an instant. Perhaps we should focus on saving them rather than making someone like Zoraya feel even worse.

[–] ZC3rr0r@lemmy.ca 54 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

I can't understand why so many people are against someone dying with dignity. This is a form of harm reduction for not just the patient, but also their loved ones, and society in general.

Nobody wants to see their loved ones suffer endlessly or needlessly, and this is also a whole lot less traumatic than people committing suicide. Nobody wants the last memory of their loved ones to be the scene of their (potentially messy) suicide.

And that's not to mention the trauma inflicted on bystanders for some of the more public suicide methods (not to mention that jumping to your death or intentionally walking into/driving into traffic has a decent chance of physically injuring or killing said bystanders).

If this process is undertaken with care and compassion, it's far less likely to be traumatizing to all involved. And it prevents "spur of the moment" decisions, like many successful suicides are.

[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 8 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Nobody wants to see their loved ones suffer endlessly or needlessly, and this is also a whole lot less traumatic than people committing suicide.

This is people committing suicide, though.

[–] ZC3rr0r@lemmy.ca 14 points 6 months ago (1 children)

That's both debatable on a semantic level (is it really suicide if it's assisted?) and not how I intended the use of the term.

What I tried to say is that this option is less traumatic than non-assisted options for ending your existence and comes with less risk of injury to bystanders to boot.

[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 6 points 6 months ago (3 children)

How is it debatable? If you're claiming it's not suicide because it's assisted, then by that logic it's murder.

It's one thing to support the policy, it's another thing to misrepresent what the policy is. Suicide is still suicide. Is it less disruptive to society? Absolutely. Is it a good policy? Debatably. But it is still suicide? Indisputably. Support it if you will but don't go around saying that it's "less traumatic than suicide" as if it isn't a form of suicide.

[–] ZC3rr0r@lemmy.ca 11 points 6 months ago (7 children)

We have a great term for the realm between murder and suicide - assistance in dying.

It bridges the gap between the definition of murder (where one party unalives the other party against their consent) and suicide (where one party unalives themselves with intent) by having the person looking to be unalived explicitly expires their intent and consent for the other party to assist them.

I feel as if you're trying to create a false equivalency to undermine the validity of this option.

And as to whether this is less traumatic than suicide - you have got to be kidding or you've never had to deal with the reality of someone committing suicide versus someone choosing assistance in dying.

One generally involves a lot of shock and someone finding a dead body in some state, the other is generally a peaceful affair where loved ones say their goodbyes before the person peacefully falls asleep for the last time.

They are nowhere near the same thing for the survivors and you claiming otherwise is an insult to both. And if you can't see the difference between these two options I'm frankly done debating this with you.

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[–] Sagittarii@lemm.ee 43 points 6 months ago (2 children)

This is the best "treatment" a capitalist shithole can give for mental health.

We live in a dystopia

[–] Sauvandu60@lemmy.id 8 points 6 months ago

It's more profitable for the capitalists.

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[–] SplashJackson@lemmy.ca 37 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Imagine thinking your life belongs to you, and then having to get permission to end it without suffering

[–] megane_kun@lemm.ee 19 points 6 months ago

There are other options other than this one that requires permission. The article mentions her reasons to choose this method.

From the article:

She had thought about taking her own life but the violent death by suicide of a schoolfriend and its impact on the girl’s family deterred her.

Whether we agree with her or not, it's her decision.

[–] FriendBesto@lemmy.ml 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Jumping off bridges is free, no?

Clearly, this is about a more complex social issue/concern.

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[–] Dekkia@this.doesnotcut.it 32 points 6 months ago (2 children)

I feel like a lot of replies here have the same "every live is precious and needs to be protected at all costs"-vibe as you get with a lot of anti-abortion arguments.

[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 29 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (20 children)

You are casually ceding the "not wanting people to kill themselves" ground to the right while also allowing them to paint themselves as caring about human lives when in reality they just want to control women's bodies and protect fetuses, not people.

"Every life is valuable" is obviously a left-wing stance because the left are the ones who actually care about people's lives, even when they're disabled, downtrodden, and painted as burdens on society.

[–] HumanPenguin@feddit.uk 7 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Oh right wing def feel every life has value.

Just less value then everybodies right not to be forced to pay for them.

They are fairly open about the value of a states non right to force an indevidual to fund anothers life. Being more important then anything.

That the value for all lives is based on either an indeviduals ability to self support. Or other indeviduals willingness to offer charity.

It is forced charity usinging the states ability to use violence they consider a greater crime then any % of society not wanting to support the lives of those in need.

Its not value or no value. But priority of those values that differs.

IE states using its same power of violence to kill forign people who might disagree with the state. Can be argued with no worry about the value of those actions. They have no issue with not choosing to fund defence or the actual state ability to use violence to enforce its laws.

Just the state taking money via potential force to provide life to US citizens in need.

[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 9 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Exactly. If we're talking about vibes, seeking to normalize suicide for people with disabilities gives me the same vibes as far-right eugenics stuff.

[–] HumanPenguin@feddit.uk 7 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Ill say one thing. As some one with disabilities. While i have no desire myself. Heck my life will be short anyway.

I do feel it is a right people should have.

It just really requires a sound mind at the time of choice. And huge effort to ensure it is not a choice the paiteint is neing forced or guilted into making.

As I cant really come up with an effective and garenteed way to enforce those restrictions.

Im currently happy my natiin will not allow anyform of assisted suicide. It must be entirly at partients own control. And technocally even then its a crime. But one that xamt be punished. Where as an assistant will be jailed.

But I can hope/wish for a world where people could choose to have suffering ended without so much risk of others pushing them into it for thier ow. Reasons.

As I say its not a choice I would make. But my own health means it could be one I mY want amd need help to make in the future.

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[–] DmMacniel@feddit.de 25 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Goodbye Zoraya ter Beek, and never stop fighting!

Also the utter disrespect on social media, flooding her accounts with stupid Messages.

[–] metaStatic@kbin.social 21 points 6 months ago

Actually her fight is over, that's the entire point

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[–] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.de 23 points 6 months ago

Unsolicited Conservative: "Has she tried to put God on that wound? If only she was religious..."

Dude, doctors will even try homeopathy before resorting to euthanasia.

[–] BakerBagel@midwest.social 23 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Idk, i am torn on this. Obviously people have had depression with suicidal tendencies since the dawn of humanity, but i feel like most modern suicides come from the failings of oir current systems. I am Zoraya's age and have struggled with depression and finding a reason to live for well over a decade. Euthanisia should be available to anyone with a terminal condition, but she still has her whole lofe ahead of her. It saddens me that the state has decided it is better to let her have a painless suicide rather than address the issues that make her life no longer worth living. To me there is no excuse for otherwise healthy adults in the prime of their lives to feel hopeless, but that is the society we have collectively decided we want to live in.

I'm glad she will be able to die on her own terms, but there is no excuse for this to be her only option. Our society has failed Zoraya and countless people like her.

I have no doubts about her sincerity to die. I just think that a better society would have been able to find her a reason to live. She is absolutely in the right here, and has done nothing wrong. It's her government which has failed her.

[–] Objection@lemmy.ml 23 points 6 months ago (4 children)

Don't really agree with this. If you look at it on an individual level, there's a case for it, but on a social level, it's dangerous. Individualist societies look for individual solutions even if the problem is social. There are problems that can't be solved with any sort of medication, therapy, etc, because the cause of the problem isn't with the individual. It's impossible to know for sure if any kind of social change would fix her problems, but if suicide is simply the go-to answer when such a problem is encountered, then we will never know. And once this becomes normalized and people start accepting it as a viable solution, then it's going to be a lot harder to materially improve things for people in these situations. Often it's only when people see that there is no individualist solution that they start thinking in terms of systemic changes, and if there's any kind of "solution," no matter how horrid it is, they'll turn to that first. I don't want to create a future where, "I've tried everything I can to fix myself and I still feel like shit," is met with a polite and friendly, "Oh, well have you considered killing yourself?"

Suicide is violence. Self-harm is harm. It's nonsense to describe a process that kills you as "safe." I understand that many people view it terms of rights or personal wills because those are prevailing ways to look at things, in individualist cultures. But life is inherently valuable and if someone thinks otherwise about their own, then they are wrong. I would make an exception for someone with severe, incurable physical pain, but while mental pain is just as real and valid as physical pain, the way it functions is more complex, and so I'm skeptical that it could be declared "incurable" to a sufficient standard, especially if solutions aren't limited to the individual level.

The fact is that we ought to be striving to accommodate as widely diverse minds as possible. Both because it's the right thing to do, and because diversity is valuable, and people who see things differently may notice or understand things that others don't. If the diversity of minds starts to narrow, I'm concerned that it will continue to narrow until neurodiverse people are effectively eliminated from society, or be isolated without community, as more and more pressure builds against anyone who doesn't fit the mold of a productive worker.

[–] hikaru755@feddit.de 8 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I don't want to create a future where, "I've tried everything I can to fix myself and I still feel like shit," is met with a polite and friendly, "Oh, well have you considered killing yourself?"

Are you for real? This kind of thing is a last resort that nobody is going to just outright suggest unprompted to a suffering person, unless that person asks for it themselves. No matter how "normalized" suicide might become, it's never gonna be something doctors will want to recommend. That's just... Why would you even think that's what's gonna happen

[–] Xer0@lemmy.ml 6 points 6 months ago (3 children)

If someone wants to end their own life, that isn't your choice to make.

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[–] JokeDeity@lemm.ee 21 points 6 months ago

I would never take that right away from someone, but I'm very sad nothing else worked for her. 29 just feels so young to have to exit, so many chances for experiences left.

[–] YtA4QCam2A9j7EfTgHrH@infosec.pub 20 points 6 months ago

I’m glad she will be able to end her suffering painlessly.

[–] dumbass@leminal.space 20 points 6 months ago
[–] Karyoplasma@discuss.tchncs.de 19 points 6 months ago

“People think that when you’re mentally ill, you can’t think straight, which is insulting,” she told the Guardian.

So much this. I've had so many people tell me that when I tell them that I don't see a way into the future and I want them to leave me the fuck alone, it actually means that I want more help. No, you donkey, it doesn't. It means leave me alone.

Bonus points when they are coming up with "ideas for my future" that are just genuinely unappealing to me and are then livid when I say no. Do they really think that going on a vacation or changing my job was not something I already thought about and discarded because I know it would not help? Nah, I'm ill, so I also must be stupid. "You always just say no. I am trying to help and you always just say no." Thanks for realizing that you are not helping me but just want to feel good about yourself.

[–] Evil_Shrubbery@lemm.ee 19 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Let people be free.
And healthcare is for everyone. The means are healthcare in this case. And social & cultural support helps.

[–] AFC1886VCC@reddthat.com 14 points 6 months ago (1 children)

What leads someone in her situation to decide to go down the euthanasia route rather than regular suicide which doesn't need any approval?

It's a morbid thought but euthanasia approval seems like it could often be a slow drawn out process, and someone able-bodied wouldn't necessarily need it.

[–] Asafum@feddit.nl 13 points 6 months ago

For me I don't want someone to have to find me and deal with the aftermath. I'd much rather it be a planned thing so no one else has to suffer just because I needed to end it all. Unfortunately I'm in a country where that's not possible so when the time comes I need to go deep into a forest or something.

[–] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 13 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I hope she finds the peace she didn't have in life.

[–] geography082@lemm.ee 16 points 6 months ago (2 children)

If you die, there is no peace to find … there is nothing.

[–] megane_kun@lemm.ee 13 points 6 months ago

And that's perhaps the most peaceful peace. A‌ peace only nothingness can bring.

[–] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 6 points 6 months ago

Nothing is a peace.

[–] yardratianSoma@lemm.ee 11 points 6 months ago

The world we live in, where this news travels all over the globe, and we get to argue about the death of a girl on the internet.

Funny times, to say the least.

[–] Emmie@lemm.ee 11 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

It’s her choice what can we really do? It’s tragic but because it is so visible while many others are in this position without such visibility.

I pray I never experience this state of things however at the same time I know I will sooner or later. I sometimes approach the state of insufferable mental torture however it is never permanent or hopeless but I have some tiny glimpse to understand her decision.

The choice of how one exits life is the last bastion of power the living have.

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[–] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 10 points 6 months ago

Had my diagnosed mental health condition hadn’t mellowed with age, I wouldn’t be able to have a functional life or hold a job. I support this woman making her own decisions about whether she can bear the burden of existence.

[–] mortemtyrannis@lemmy.ml 9 points 6 months ago

I feel sorry for her partner watching your loved one die is fucking brutal.

Hope they get supported in the aftermath.

[–] figaro@lemdro.id 8 points 6 months ago (3 children)

I'm currently midway through a program to become a therapist. I've been in the mental health space for quite some time, and worked with students of many ages.

This is the wrong decision. Suicide is usually a consequence of hopelessness. In my experience, hope can be brought back to most people suffering from mental health issues.

It also sets a dangerous precedent. A way out, so to speak, for people with a temporary, overcomable problem.

(For the record, I am ok with medical assistance in dying when it comes to chronic severe pain and illness).

[–] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.de 15 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I'm currently midway through a program to become a therapist. I've been in the mental health space for quite some time, and worked with students of many ages.

So you are not a therapist.

Bodily autonomy includes the right to die, if one choses to do so. Are you against bodily autonomy?

And what do you think would happen if she had been denied? Instead of a dignified death in a safe environment she might have resorted to options available to her, possibly endangering other people as well.

[–] Tangentism@lemmy.ml 12 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

The previous commentor sounds exactly like all those people who have harassed Zoraya with their bullshit "miracle cures".

It had always astounded me that we offer painless, merciful euthanasia to our pets and animals, both wild and domesticated, yet not to our fellow humans, who must suffer until the bitter end.

[–] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.de 8 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

It's the remnants of the religious infestation that still slumbers in the collective consciousness of society that makes madness like that possible.

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[–] DmMacniel@feddit.de 6 points 6 months ago (3 children)

Do you really think that becoming a therapist is a good idea when you can't even read the article which lays out her hopeless situation?

Also this isn't a precedent.

Also why are you okay with assistance in dying when it comes to pain and illness but not mental illness? Because you can't see/diagnose the latter so easily?

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[–] xxd@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 6 months ago

Have you read the article?

Under Dutch law, to be eligible for an assisted death, a person must be experiencing “unbearable suffering with no prospect of improvement”. They must be fully informed and competent to take such a decision.

After 10 years, there was “nothing left” in terms of treatment. “I knew I couldn’t cope with the way I live now.”

In the three and a half years this has taken, I’ve never hesitated about my decision.

How is this a temporary and overcomable problem? It seems clear that it is not temporary and no kind of treatment worked for her. As per the law, there must be unbearable suffering without prospect of improvement, and during the multiple stages of this process, apparently no one came to the conclusion that that wasn't the case for her. So how can you make that assessment?

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